Honda Withdrawl from F1

[Adam43]

I think it’s just you. We were just talking about the different approaches and GM have tried less and have achieved less than the others you’ve listed in the European side of the sport.

As I said, so what? The original point was that it is unlikely that GM would do F1 because they haven’t bothered in the past. All those others have in the past and are more likely to do so again. I think that is fair. I’d argue that GM are very astute to not GP their as it doesn’t fit their audience, markets and brand.

Renault, Honda and BMW have all had super success in F1. Toyota didn’t, but throw stones at them as an argument that no one should to GM seemed odd. Especially as people weren’t really. And they have achieved at Le Mans whatever you said. And they’ve been there in rallying too. You could argue that Toyota’s Le Mans success came at a period of change in the sport like Repco did with Brabham with F1. good on them both.

For me it doesn’t matter, all part of the rich tapestry of the sport across the world.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I’d argue that GM are very astute to not GP their as it doesn’t fit their audience, markets and brand.

That is my perspective. I think GM would be absolute idiots to jump into F1 now or in the immediate future for the reasons you list above. Kudos to GM for not doing F1.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by veeten

...not to mention, the BTCC and WTCC multiple champion Chevy Cruse. But, I guess that just doesn't "trip your trigger', does it?

That went very well. But now the Cruze and Captiva are no longer sold in Europe any more, and there are no more Chevrolet dealers at all, so it was all for nothing.

Don't forget what General Motors did to SAAB either, which also no longer exists. They didn't leverage the design excellence of SAAB to make Cadillacs better, but rather decontented SAAB quality to little more than fancy Opels.

Originally Posted by veeten

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that everyone wants to give most other manufacturers the benefit of the doubt, except for GM. Why?

How can you give GM the benefit of the doubt when they don't even sell cars in Europe or Australia any more at all? There's nothing to give them the benefit of the doubt on.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Kudos to GM for not doing F1.

Do they get kudos for not selling cars in Europe or Australia any more? :/

[FIRE]

GM failed outside North- and South-America.

[Adam43]

Well if we’re doing whether GM were any good at profitably selling cars outside the Americas. Well that’s different. If we’re doing whether their racing program should be outside the Americas then kind of obvious.

I mourn the loss of the proper SAAB.

A good book on the inner workings of GM is Car Guys verses Bean Counters by Bob Lutz.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Well if we’re doing whether GM were any good at profitably selling cars outside the Americas. Well that’s different. If we’re doing whether their racing program should be outside the Americas then kind of obvious.

I mourn the loss of the proper SAAB.

A good book on the inner workings of GM is Car Guys verses Bean Counters by Bob Lutz.

Thnks for the suggestion Adam, yes I bet that is a good read! i'll get a copy shortly

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Well if we’re doing whether GM were any good at profitably selling cars outside the Americas. Well that’s different. If we’re doing whether their racing program should be outside the Americas then kind of obvious.

I mourn the loss of the proper SAAB.

A good book on the inner workings of GM is Car Guys verses Bean Counters by Bob Lutz.

I ordered the book yesterday and am looking forward to reading it.With the breadth of experience Bob Lutz had,he wouldn't have had the narrow view of the world that seems to have been inculcated in the GM lifers.I also note the immediate leaping to the defence of GM by some of our American contributors,must be that all those years of pledging allegiance to the flag makes them very prickly when an American institution collects adverse comments.I remember well when GM and Ford were the world's No 1 and 2 and they have both been usurped.I still veer between amusement and irritation when I recall how the marketing men tried to create the impression that the 2016 class win for the GT was more significant than a class victory.I respect the achievement and the timescale of the project far more than the manipulation of the class win by the PR people.https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...s-le-mans.html
It will be interesting to see whether the inevitable consolidation of car companies will be led by the brands that are willing to enter the global cauldron of F1 or those that avoid the occasionally brutal exposure of their abilities.We have seen how Honda progressed from a McLaren that would hardly run to being in a front running car,which surely illustrates the determination to succeed and not a willingness to just make up the numbers.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Do they get kudos for not selling cars in Europe or Australia any more? :/

No. I agree with the comments that the contraction back into primarily North America along with a focus on large vehicles (trucks, SUVs) is a sign of weaknesses. Is it a short term regrouping or a long term trend? Probably the later.

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

No. I agree with the comments that the contraction back into primarily North America along with a focus on large vehicles (trucks, SUVs) is a sign of weaknesses. Is it a short term regrouping or a long term trend? Probably the later.

Richard

Everyone always forgets about China, maybe GM could start a race series there.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...obile%20market.

[chillibowl]

So this Honda engined team seems to have a bright future!

Hamilton stopped of course but still finished 35sec behind!

[Richard C]

Personally, I am hoping they deliver a championship this year before they exit. There is still a majority of races left, but it is looking promising.

Richard

[S griffin]

It was here two years ago Honda got their first win since their comeback. Two years on they are leading the title. They certainly look like they could go out with a bang and hopefully not literally!

[GT6]

Well if Honda have any sense they will quietly keep the name Honda on whatever RBR and the team use and bask in the glory if the team wins the championship

[thetool]

It would be a very Honda thing to finally develop a championship contending engine and then withdraw. Just like 2009 where their new car could have been a Honda World Champion rather than a Brawn GP.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well if Honda have any sense they will quietly keep the name Honda on whatever RBR and the team use and bask in the glory if the team wins the championship

This reminds me of the story about Porsche, McLaren and TAG in the mid 1980's. In which while Porsche was building the engine, but it was to be labelled as TAG. Porsche put the engine in a 956 prototype and was not shy about letting people know about it. Reportedly McLaren/TAG were not happy that Porsche was getting free PR while McLaren and TAG were paying the bills!

In the end. Honda is out at the end of 2021. The IP is being transferred to the new RBR engine operations. RBR might be contracting with Honda (or Honda suppliers) for some stuff. But RBR and not Honda is going to own the success/failure of this going forward. Short of Honda giving them some money (lots of money) there is zero chance of the Honda name showing up on anything in 2022 because RBR wants the glory for their work. No doubt people will continue to call it the Honda engine in 2022. And if it does well, Honda will get some glory. If it does poorly, then people will blame RBR for "screwing up a good power unit".

I wish RBR well and frankly hope if it goes well that they take the credit because there is plenty of room for them to screw it up. It's a huge undertaking.

Richard

[bathurst77]

for a number of years the honda pu was a let down and not up to par
in the end honda gave up and admitted defeat and withdrawal

i wonder now with their teams 1st and 5th and a swag of poles, fastest laps wins and podiums going their way, might there be a chance some of the execs want to keep the name on the cars a few more years and decide to play on fpr a while.

its nott like the teams are going elsewhere

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This reminds me of the story about Porsche, McLaren and TAG in the mid 1980's. In which while Porsche was building the engine, but it was to be labelled as TAG. Porsche put the engine in a 956 prototype and was not shy about letting people know about it. Reportedly McLaren/TAG were not happy that Porsche was getting free PR while McLaren and TAG were paying the bills!

In the end. Honda is out at the end of 2021. The IP is being transferred to the new RBR engine operations. RBR might be contracting with Honda (or Honda suppliers) for some stuff. But RBR and not Honda is going to own the success/failure of this going forward. Short of Honda giving them some money (lots of money) there is zero chance of the Honda name showing up on anything in 2022 because RBR wants the glory for their work. No doubt people will continue to call it the Honda engine in 2022. And if it does well, Honda will get some glory. If it does poorly, then people will blame RBR for "screwing up a good power unit".

I wish RBR well and frankly hope if it goes well that they take the credit because there is plenty of room for them to screw it up. It's a huge undertaking.

Richard

My big fear for RBR is that if they are successful the manufacturers will just change the rules on them like they did to Cosworth when they got their engines to rev over 20 00 rpm. Suddenly the tech wasn't road relevant and was too expensive for the manufacturers to pursue, so the rules were just changed to exclude Cosworth's high revving engines. Guess we will see how well advised RBR's investment in hybrid PUs turns out to be.

On an aside but related matter, I see that Audi and Porsche have been invited to the conference where the 2025 engine rules are being decided. They are not supporting F1 and to my mind have no place at the F1 table. Just shows how captured the FIA is by the manufacturers. https://racingnews365.com/audi-and-p...1-engine-talks

[chillibowl]

What about the engineers who work at Audi, Porsche, VW etc.

Their input could still be valiable no?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

My big fear for RBR is that if they are successful the manufacturers will just change the rules on them like they did to Cosworth when they got their engines to rev over 20 00 rpm. Suddenly the tech wasn't road relevant and was too expensive for the manufacturers to pursue, so the rules were just changed to exclude Cosworth's high revving engines. Guess we will see how well advised RBR's investment in hybrid PUs turns out to be.

On an aside but related matter, I see that Audi and Porsche have been invited to the conference where the 2025 engine rules are being decided. They are not supporting F1 and to my mind have no place at the F1 table. Just shows how captured the FIA is by the manufacturers. https://racingnews365.com/audi-and-p...1-engine-talks

They aren't supporting F1 at the moment but that doesn't mean they should necessarily be excluded. This invitation seems very much like a precursor to possible future involvement in F1.

[S griffin]

It’s gonna be tricky, Honda have finally got an engine that’s about to win the title. Can Red Bull build one up to a similar standard? Maybe they will get a bit of help from Honda, who knows? Worth considering

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They aren't supporting F1 at the moment but that doesn't mean they should necessarily be excluded. This invitation seems very much like a precursor to possible future involvement in F1.

I'd be more comfortable if they were joined by 6 team principles/owners from racing teams outside of F1.

I remain convinced that F1 needs to ensure it is viable for privateers to come in, not only manufacturers.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'd be more comfortable if they were joined by 6 team principles/owners from racing teams outside of F1.

I remain convinced that F1 needs to ensure it is viable for privateers to come in, not only manufacturers.

Have any teams/team principles/owners from outside of F1, shown an interest in competing in F1? The last new team to join F1 was Haas in 2016. The following year Manor quit F1 and since then the grid has remained at 20 cars.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

honda gave up and admitted defeat and withdrawal

That is a perspective. By my opinion is it doesn't match reality. Honda has a habit of pulling the plug at the wrong time, but frankly I think even if they were successful prior to the decision they would probably still be leaving. F1 is just not fitting in with their corporate direction at the moment.

Originally Posted by wnut

On an aside but related matter, I see that Audi and Porsche have been invited to the conference where the 2025 engine rules are being decided. They are not supporting F1 and to my mind have no place at the F1 table. Just shows how captured the FIA is by the manufacturers. https://racingnews365.com/audi-and-p...1-engine-talks

Should it only be Ferrari, Mercedes and Ferrari?

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'd be more comfortable if they were joined by 6 team principles/owners from racing teams outside of F1.

I think if one of those teams were to step up and say they were interested in, or planned to supply F1 power units in the future, they would be invited. Such as has been done with Red Bull!

Originally Posted by chunterer

I remain convinced that F1 needs to ensure it is viable for privateers to come in, not only manufacturers.

My comments above might sound like I support the status quo, but I agree with you. And to your point above, it should be a decision focused on the teams and not the suppliers (such as large auto manufactures). But they are in this catch-22 in which they have to cater to those who actually have stepped up to the plate. Now the problem is they have created a complex engine and that has locked out other independent suppliers who are not part of the "current" club (Cosworth, Judd, etc.)

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'd be more comfortable if they were joined by 6 team principles/owners from racing teams outside of F1.

I remain convinced that F1 needs to ensure it is viable for privateers to come in, not only manufacturers.

IMO (and this is just IMO), to survive F1 needs to completely disconnect from road car technology/marketing, to achieve what you're saying - and I agree.

The manufacturers have been allowed to push for insanely expensive engines, which has created a monopoly of the big manufacturers. It has pushed out the small engine builders like Judd and what not, which means everyone has to do what Mercedes and Renault say.

Mandate large capacity NA engines. Manufacturers will largely stop caring and leave. Builders such as Gibson and Judd will fill the gap, and engine costs will plummet, allowing privateers to survive easier.

Manufacturers hold the sport to ransom for "activation" money. Which doesn't make sense, because F1 was not less popular when Senna vs Prost vs Nigel was a thing, just because the cars were Williams and McLaren and not Mercedes and Renault.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Have any teams/team principles/owners from outside of F1, shown an interest in competing in F1? The last new team to join F1 was Haas in 2016. The following year Manor quit F1 and since then the grid has remained at 20 cars.

Surely Stefan GP is due for another bid? Maybe he can do a co-ownership thing with Rich Energy.