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Old 4 Dec 2017, 18:04 (Ref:3785090)   #3201
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Damian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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I don't see the P2s quite challenging, and I reckon the Nissan will be more a race pace car than a qualifier
I wouldn't leave out the P2s of the equation. Last year all the P2 had electronic problems (only the Riley ran well and finished 3rd!), but by mid of the season they were at front fighting.
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Old 4 Dec 2017, 18:41 (Ref:3785098)   #3202
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So all in all, at this point, what is everyone's prediction for fastest Proto in the Daytona 24 qualifying?

I think caddies will still be upfront with a heavy challenge from Penske, if Joest get the car in line then Mazda could be up front in quali (can't see them having legs for full race though).

I don't see the P2s quite challenging, and I reckon the Nissan will be more a race pace car than a qualifier


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I'm interested to see what Mazda does. Rumblings online about the AER engines doing well in pre-testing for both Mazda and their LMP effort with BRE/Dallara. Common factor with both compared to previous efforts looks to be having better cars??? & higher calibre drivers (got to be a factor).
Outside of that, the Caddies will definitely be up there along with Nissan and very interested to see the Acura out of the box.

This weeks BOP testing will tell us more.

Hopefully with better cars elsewhere this year the caddies wont be hamstrung and some great racing can be had all season long!
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Old 4 Dec 2017, 19:14 (Ref:3785106)   #3203
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Damian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It looks like Montoya is very happy with the Acura.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/14610...acura-dpi-ride
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Old 4 Dec 2017, 20:39 (Ref:3785119)   #3204
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So all in all, at this point, what is everyone's prediction for fastest Proto in the Daytona 24 qualifying?

I think caddies will still be upfront with a heavy challenge from Penske, if Joest get the car in line then Mazda could be up front in quali (can't see them having legs for full race though).
If the way Montoya's raving about the ARX-05 is any indication, I'd say it's a coin toss between Caddy and Acura. I don't think Joest will really push the Mazda in qualifying until the first sprint race - you don't really need a good qualifying run to win an endurance race and no matter how well the testing has gone, and their work isn't "proven" until they race it so it wouldn't be a bad idea to save the car in qualifying and make sure their hard work has paid off in-race before they pushing 110% all the time.
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Old 4 Dec 2017, 21:33 (Ref:3785133)   #3205
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It looks like Montoya is very happy with the Acura.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/14610...acura-dpi-ride
They have to be the early championship favorite at this point. I don't think the same team is going to win the first 5 races as we saw this year. It wouldn't surprise me if we had 6+ different winners on the season.
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Old 4 Dec 2017, 21:41 (Ref:3785134)   #3206
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Damian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The Nissans has been very strong at the end of the season, if they improved the cooling of the engine, maybe they could go even faster in 2018.

If the Cadillacs with the new Dallara splitter can get better front grip, they would be the best cars on track again. I say this because I think WTR solved the lack of front grip with a good setup, but Action Express fought all year to be as fast as WTR car. Maybe the Taylor brothers got a setup to suit their driving style that wasn't good for the other drivers.
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Old 6 Dec 2017, 22:16 (Ref:3785533)   #3207
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Random and probably stupid question, but anyone have a guess at what a DPI budget is? Watching an old ALMS race on You Tube it was claimed that in '03 that Champion Racing spent $4.5 million USD to run a full ALMS season.

I know it's kind of apples to oranges (15 year time gap/inflation, IMSA didn't have a true 24 Hour race on the schedule unless you counted Le Mans, etc), but I was wondering just for comparison's sake.
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Old 6 Dec 2017, 22:51 (Ref:3785541)   #3208
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Random and probably stupid question, but anyone have a guess at what a DPI budget is? Watching an old ALMS race on You Tube it was claimed that in '03 that Champion Racing spent $4.5 million USD to run a full ALMS season.

I know it's kind of apples to oranges (15 year time gap/inflation, IMSA didn't have a true 24 Hour race on the schedule unless you counted Le Mans, etc), but I was wondering just for comparison's sake.
I seem to remember a 3-5 million number being talked about recently with the 24 playing a big part, obviously.
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Old 8 Dec 2017, 21:26 (Ref:3785930)   #3209
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Marshall Pruett reports that:

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A private meeting was held on Monday where DPi survey data was reviewed with the manufacturers who participate in the Prototype class. It's believed a general agreement to stay the course with the same DPi formula in the years ahead was made and suggestions of adding LMP1-style hybrid systems were shot down immediately. A general feeling of wanting to leave DPi unchanged described by those who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 10:29 (Ref:3790286)   #3210
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Interesting Cadillac will reduce the engine capacity from 6.2L down to 5.5L in an attempt to help IMSA BOP targets.......seems like IMSA and Cadillac had a quiet kitchen discussion and agreed the 6.2L was a bit of a joke and causing everyone an un-needed BOP headache.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/ca...ed-dpi-engine/

Seems like a case of collective stupidity to me, mostly on IMSA's side, whereby they should not have allowed such a huge engine capacity to compete in the first place.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 12:27 (Ref:3790294)   #3211
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Interesting Cadillac will reduce the engine capacity from 6.2L down to 5.5L in an attempt to help IMSA BOP targets.......seems like IMSA and Cadillac had a quiet kitchen discussion and agreed the 6.2L was a bit of a joke and causing everyone an un-needed BOP headache.
I can't help but think there's a weight balance issue here. I'm sure the 5.5 will be lighter, unless it's the same block destroked obviously, and IMSA showed last year that they really do want things as equal as possible(even though it took most of the season to get there), so if they're going to be restricted down anyway they might as well switch to an engine that can create a better overall balance in light of it.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 12:31 (Ref:3790296)   #3212
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Is this just the 5.5 litre out of the GTE/GTLM Corvette?
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 13:59 (Ref:3790305)   #3213
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LS and LT are basically the same engine design overall, so I doubt there's much of a weight difference. I'm betting it's down to BOP.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 14:10 (Ref:3790307)   #3214
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I can't help but think there's a weight balance issue here. I'm sure the 5.5 will be lighter, unless it's the same block destroked obviously, and IMSA showed last year that they really do want things as equal as possible(even though it took most of the season to get there), so if they're going to be restricted down anyway they might as well switch to an engine that can create a better overall balance in light of it.
even if nissan, cadillac and acura dpi have been set to have a 940kg min. weight, actually is irrelevant because as already stated during last season cadillac and nissan are already about 50kg overweighted. Also riley lmp2 and mazda dpi were overweighted last season.
Guess won't never be confirmed if new cadillac engine is a destroked 6.2L or an updated corvette DP LS9, but I don't expect a considerable weight loss by this swap.

Acura, nissan and cadillac should be in the same torque range now; with acura as the only brand fielded by the closest thing to an official work team (actually don't know if WTR will keep on being supported by GM and dallara like 2017 season.... AXR and SoD won't be for sure).
Is unlikely a cadillac domination like 3/4 of last season.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 23:18 (Ref:3790381)   #3215
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Just for fun I made some odds for how I see the Prototype class at Daytona
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Old 3 Jan 2018, 03:21 (Ref:3790396)   #3216
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even if nissan, cadillac and acura dpi have been set to have a 940kg min. weight, actually is irrelevant because as already stated during last season cadillac and nissan are already about 50kg overweighted. Also riley lmp2 and mazda dpi were overweighted last season.
Guess won't never be confirmed if new cadillac engine is a destroked 6.2L or an updated corvette DP LS9, but I don't expect a considerable weight loss by this swap.

Acura, nissan and cadillac should be in the same torque range now; with acura as the only brand fielded by the closest thing to an official work team (actually don't know if WTR will keep on being supported by GM and dallara like 2017 season.... AXR and SoD won't be for sure).
Is unlikely a cadillac domination like 3/4 of last season.
Do you know how much slower the cars would be if they were 50kg overweight? Cadillac wouldn't be winning anything if they were that heavy When they say overweight, it's more likely they don't have much leeway with ballast if at all. I have no idea why this figure of 40, 50kg etc. gets thrown around. Do you have a link? Does anyone have a link to this?
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Old 3 Jan 2018, 09:06 (Ref:3790430)   #3217
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When you have so much torque by your side, being a little overweight is not a problem at all. Peugeot 908HDi has always been overweighted and very likely even porsche, audi and toyota lmp1 are over the min. weight.
During 2014-2016 IMSA seasons, DP were 140kg heavier than lmp2, but basically was irrelevant.
About cadillac there is an Angelelli interview after daytona success where he states that car is a bit more powerfull than lmp2 but however heavier because of the larger engine. About esm, before laguna seca race, scott sharp stated that the track fits better for aco lmp2 becasuse are about 50kg lighter than them.

And funny side of the issue, just one years ago, you were the one who speculated about esm car overweight (page 135 of this thread)
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 08:25 (Ref:3790573)   #3218
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When you have so much torque by your side, being a little overweight is not a problem at all. Peugeot 908HDi has always been overweighted and very likely even porsche, audi and toyota lmp1 are over the min. weight.
During 2014-2016 IMSA seasons, DP were 140kg heavier than lmp2, but basically was irrelevant.
About cadillac there is an Angelelli interview after daytona success where he states that car is a bit more powerfull than lmp2 but however heavier because of the larger engine. About esm, before laguna seca race, scott sharp stated that the track fits better for aco lmp2 becasuse are about 50kg lighter than them.

And funny side of the issue, just one years ago, you were the one who speculated about esm car overweight (page 135 of this thread)
Being overweight can vary and of course it's possible. I just have a hard time believing 50kg over is the amount. That would mean they're running around 980kg. They wouldn't be winning with that amount of heft. Torque helps a lot, but if that's the case, the Penske Acura will be a lot quicker because we know from Oreca that chassis is under the minimum weight requirement.

DP vs lmp2 is a different scenario because the former had at least 100 more horsepower. These DPi's are the same lmp2's but with new hardware, they don't have that big of a power advantage. If you have a source that would be nice to read!
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 09:37 (Ref:3790580)   #3219
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let's clear something: oreca 07, along liger and dallara lmp2 with gibson engine under the hood are lighter than 930kg. No doubts about that. Add to this mandatory air conditioning system and you just have some room left for ballast to reach 930kg.
Turbo engines are heavier, require extra cooling devices around it and a more resistant rear subframe structure joint to the monocoque; very likely acura dpi uses a different rear suspensions geometry than standard 07, to make the powertrain fully stressed. The latter is just a my theory of course, but quite realistic I guess. All these modifies make the car much heavier.
Question: Is oreca 07 chassis so light that even if powered by HPD 3.5 V6, the car will remain under 930kg? Perhaps, or maybe not.

About lmp2/DPi, is not so correct. Power gap between lmp2 and dp was in the range of 60hp in 2014 (nissan 500hp lmp2 vs GM/ford about 560hp). From that, dp power was constantly nerfed, until 2016 season where ligiers powered by HPD 3.5L were basically in the same power range power, if not something more.
Real deal for dp was that both riley ford and corvette DP were in 600-640Nm range, 100Nm more than lmp2 nissan, that helped the dp's to be on the edge even if heavier and less aero/chassis developed.
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 12:36 (Ref:3790607)   #3220
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let's clear something: oreca 07, along liger and dallara lmp2 with gibson engine under the hood are lighter than 930kg. No doubts about that. Add to this mandatory air conditioning system and you just have some room left for ballast to reach 930kg.
Turbo engines are heavier, require extra cooling devices around it and a more resistant rear subframe structure joint to the monocoque; very likely acura dpi uses a different rear suspensions geometry than standard 07, to make the powertrain fully stressed. The latter is just a my theory of course, but quite realistic I guess. All these modifies make the car much heavier.
Question: Is oreca 07 chassis so light that even if powered by HPD 3.5 V6, the car will remain under 930kg? Perhaps, or maybe not.

About lmp2/DPi, is not so correct. Power gap between lmp2 and dp was in the range of 60hp in 2014 (nissan 500hp lmp2 vs GM/ford about 560hp). From that, dp power was constantly nerfed, until 2016 season where ligiers powered by HPD 3.5L were basically in the same power range power, if not something more.
Real deal for dp was that both riley ford and corvette DP were in 600-640Nm range, 100Nm more than lmp2 nissan, that helped the dp's to be on the edge even if heavier and less aero/chassis developed.
Do we know that to be true? Seems like something well beyond the idea of DPi, at least to me.
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 14:56 (Ref:3790636)   #3221
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HPD engine can't be stress mounted in the Oreca-Acura because it's a stock block engine. Neither can the GM V8 in the Cadillac or the Nissan in ESM's Ligiers be fully stress mounted. By which I mean bolted directly to the monocoque vs being mounted in a sub-frame.

If you're going to redesign a stock block engine to be fully stress mounted, may as well start from a clean sheet of paper.

The only thing stock on these engines are the basic block and heads, but the basic block and heads aren't designed to be bolted to the tub as an integral member.
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 16:18 (Ref:3790654)   #3222
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HPD engine can't be stress mounted in the Oreca-Acura because it's a stock block engine. Neither can the GM V8 in the Cadillac or the Nissan in ESM's Ligiers be fully stress mounted. By which I mean bolted directly to the monocoque vs being mounted in a sub-frame.

If you're going to redesign a stock block engine to be fully stress mounted, may as well start from a clean sheet of paper.

The only thing stock on these engines are the basic block and heads, but the basic block and heads aren't designed to be bolted to the tub as an integral member.
Are you sure? It's quite common for road going engines to be stress mounted via a bespoke sump and either bespoke cam/rocker covers or mounting plates. Majority of prototypes still have additional supporting frames from the bellhousing to tub for additional support but don't live in a cage. Current p3's are a good example of all this.

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Old 4 Jan 2018, 20:43 (Ref:3790708)   #3223
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MP has some engine related info (semi stressed) in the Caddy

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/14656...smaller-engine

Also, imsa has a 580hp target.
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 20:49 (Ref:3790710)   #3224
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Semi-stressed to me implies tube frame that ties the engine to the tub. I doubt that the block and heads on any of the stock block engines has been modified enough to be bolted to the monocoque.
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Old 4 Jan 2018, 21:24 (Ref:3790715)   #3225
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MP has some engine related info (semi stressed) in the Caddy

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/14656...smaller-engine

Also, imsa has a 580hp target.
So according to the article, the engine has been de-stroked, it's not the old DP engine or the GTE engine. So weight balance is not part of the equation - if, somehow, the pistons in the 6.2 were so heavy that the de-stroked block's extra weight in combination with the smaller pistons is lighter it'd be at most a five pound difference. It is in all likelihood exactly the same weight.
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