[Race] Japanese Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jimclark

^^^ Half empty. ^^^




^^^ Half full. ^^^

It is getting monotonous, like Schumi and Ferrari from 2000-2004 and at Sochi there was a sort of Austria 2002 moment. I stopped watching F1 for a few years after Austria 2002. I might just do the same for a bit after this season, until something or someone comes along, that can pick the series up.

[Aysedasi]

Yep, but you can hardly blame Hamilton and Mercedes for the rest not being good enough. It was the same in the Vettel/RBR era, the Schumacher Ferrari era and countless other 'eras' before that. Not that I'm leaping to jim's defence here (wouldn't that be something jim? ), it floats his boat more than it does ours, but there's nothing at all unusual about it.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It is getting monotonous, like Schumi and Ferrari from 2000-2004 and at Sochi there was a sort of Austria 2002 moment. I stopped watching F1 for a few years after Austria 2002. I might just do the same for a bit after this season, until something or someone comes along, that can pick the series up.

There you go. Like I've done with the series I've mentioned that I no longer have interest in. 'Beats beating the same old drum over and over.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

Mercedes have made the bigger cock-ups this season, in my opinion

This has to be this week's most bizarre opinion. But I respect it, of course......

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yep, but you can hardly blame Hamilton and Mercedes for the rest not being good enough. It was the same in the Vettel/RBR era, the Schumacher Ferrari era and countless other 'eras' before that. Not that I'm leaping to jim's defence here (wouldn't that be something jim? ), it floats his boat more than it does ours, but there's nothing at all unusual about it.

I don't blame Hamilton and Mercedes.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not that I'm leaping to jim's defence here (wouldn't that be something jim? )

No! 'Cause it would cause me to , and in so doing, I might hurt myself!

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

This has to be this week's most bizarre opinion. But I respect it, of course......

Upon re-think, hypothetically, if a few big "cock-ups" by a team (mistakes/misfortunes I presume) result in championships, as opposed to a rash of poor decisions resulting in not, I would wanna be on the former rather than the latter.

[Aysedasi]

True, you tend to learn more from your mistakes than your successes......

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

True, you tend to learn more from your mistakes than your successes......

Merc did have some large strategy blunders earlier this season (OZ, Bahrain, Silverstone, Austria i think) ...but they have learned from it where as Ferrari look to have taken it for granted.

dont want to pile on or get too far ahead, but i very much agree with others (you and Greem's in particular) that Ferrari really do seem lost and have been for some time now.

they have a huge budget so maybe they will get it right again but i cant help but feel shades of Williams' and Mclaren's fall from perennial top class performers about to be repeated.

[S griffin]

Ferrari’s budget and facilities are so high, yet they keep throwing it away.

The big problem is that even if Lewis has two or three off weekends a season these days, he is still consistent enough to keep out of trouble and score some decent points

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Merc did have some large strategy blunders earlier this season (OZ, Bahrain, Silverstone, Austria i think) ...but they have learned from it where as Ferrari look to have taken it for granted.

dont want to pile on or get too far ahead, but i very much agree with others (you and Greem's in particular) that Ferrari really do seem lost and have been for some time now.

they have a huge budget so maybe they will get it right again but i cant help but feel shades of Williams' and Mclaren's fall from perennial top class performers about to be repeated.

Try to think back to 2016. Just try, and maybe you'll gain some perspective.

[Aysedasi]

I think Ferrari will still be competitive next season and who knows, they may put the recent blunders behind them and finish the season strongly. It would be good to see. I don't see that the falling away over the last couple of months should herald a Williams or McLaren like decline....

[chillibowl]

i'll try but i cant say i recall 2016 being that great for Ferrari. sure they made great strides in clawing back the engine deficit since then...but how much credit does close count for? they have probably spent well over a billion euros since 2016 with nothing to show.

anyways im sure im missing something else but im too afraid to ask.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

STR Honda start at the front and once again end up with zero points. Great upgrade again mates!

The enige is actualy a lot better but the STR car has'nt got updates in a while

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

STR Honda start at the front and once again end up with zero points. Great upgrade again mates!

Ok then!

My thoughts (which I think is more objective) is that we have to remember it’s not quite as simple as just “Honda”. Honda has clearly made huge strides with respect to reliability. I believe penalties at this point are predominately or fully about them introducing upgrades. Plus they are experiencing improvements in qualifying position and race pace. So the power unit upgrades are steps forward.

Race results remain a struggle. Clearly the entire package (chassis, drivers, power unit) is seconds behind the front on pure lap time. Gasly looks very racy. Hartley (who I have given the benefit of doubt in the past) is inconsistent at best and lost at worst (at least in F1). In this race Hartley was eaten alive at the start of the race and then generally settled down, but the damage was done.

Gasly did well early on, pushed about as far forward as it could be expected and then was a victim of poor strategy IMHO. In short they kept him out way too long. He was able to keep pace with Grosjean, but eventually drifted back to eight seconds behind (with the gap increasing every lap) when they both pitted on the same lap. Timing says they both had similar length stops, but that gap resulted in Grosjean rejoining in 7th and Gasly in 15th!! A huge group of other drivers split them. The team owes him an apology on that strategy call. At that point his race was over. They should have pitted many laps earlier.

Other thoughts... I will pile on and agree that under pressure Vettel just makes mistakes. He gambles in the wrong way. Sort of like Max does, but Max has inexperience and youth as his excuse.

Richard

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i'll try but i cant say i recall 2016 being that great for Ferrari.

... Which is the point. The gap to Mercedes has decreased massively in less than two years, yet you proclaim the fall of Ferrari because they haven't managed to claw back quite enough just yet and can't beat a superior package.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

The enige is actualy a lot better but the STR car has'nt got updates in a while

Uh huh keep telling that to yourself

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i'll try but i cant say i recall 2016 being that great for Ferrari. sure they made great strides in clawing back the engine deficit since then...but how much credit does close count for? they have probably spent well over a billion euros since 2016 with nothing to show.

anyways im sure im missing something else but im too afraid to ask.

It wasn't that great for Ferrari.

Vettel finished 4th in the WDC with 212 points and was the only top driver to have a DNS at Bahrain.

Ferrari finished 3rd in the WCC, with 398 points.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

... Which is the point. The gap to Mercedes has decreased massively in less than two years, yet you proclaim the fall of Ferrari because they haven't managed to claw back quite enough just yet and can't beat a superior package.

So... they have a better car, but not the best car (which I agree with) and they've improved in terms of power and reliability (which I agree with).

What, exactly, then are they consistently getting wrong? Why is it that year after year after year when the pressure arrives they demonstrate as a team that something is missing? What is it that is missing?

In my view it's calm, consistent leadership - which Mercedes definitely have. Toto may not be everyone's cup of tea but he at the very least admits when they've made mistakes, as does their chief strategist, and they learn and move on.

Ferrari are a big part of F1, but they're very frustrating to watch (and I've been watching them for a long, long time). Sometimes everything aligns and they can be sublime, but when things don't align...

Reputations are hard to get rid of, especially when drivers and team management repeat the same mistakes over and over again over decades.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Greem

So... they have a better car, but not the best car (which I agree with) and they've improved in terms of power and reliability (which I agree with).

What, exactly, then are they consistently getting wrong? Why is it that year after year after year when the pressure arrives they demonstrate as a team that something is missing? What is it that is missing?

Speed. Over a season you simply can't beat Mercedes if your car is consistently slower. And that also leads to being forced to try outside the box thinking, which is almost always punished in F1. It leads to having to force the issue like in Russia, where Vettel had to completely drain his battery to get in front of Hamilton during the pitstops. They caught out Mercedes but in the end it didn't matter because of the speed difference.

The only way to win in a car that's not the fastest is for the fastest team to implode and while Mercedes have made some howlers they've been pretty steady this year.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think Ferrari will still be competitive next season and who knows, they may put the recent blunders behind them and finish the season strongly. It would be good to see. I don't see that the falling away over the last couple of months should herald a Williams or McLaren like decline....

Uh-oh...

Fing agreement!!!

Seriously, the Ferrari (and those that design, fabricate, develop, and "wrench" on) racing car itself will be again, I presume. It's Ferrari the decision makers (driver included...aka Vettel) that need to improve; and not just put the blunders behind but, also, to stop making more.....

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Greem

In my view it's calm, consistent leadership - which Mercedes definitely have. Toto may not be everyone's cup of tea but he at the very least admits when they've made mistakes, as does their chief strategist, and they learn and move on.

'Reminds me.... There was this top team once....McLaren I think it was called....and this guy....I think his name was Ron.......

I won't mention the real guy and his arse kicking Bruce (ooopppsss, I just did) and Denny show.....

[djinvicta]

Strategy killed any Ferrari comeback today. After the Max lunge..why not pit Vettel, fresh tyres and put him in clear air/track for 15 plus laps to push push push...Crazy.

[Adam43]

A few races ago it looked like Ferrari had the quicker car and Vettel driving well. Then he started driving poorly and the tram lost their advantage. For most anyway.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Uh huh keep telling that to yourself

it's the truth

and also remember Alonso and Vandoorne actualy did BETTER last year with the Honda engine than this year with Renault(in qualifying AND the race)