F4 Championship

[Tempest-Racing]

We are looking to race in the UK this year, we have Dallara F301 which has been used in hill and sprint racing and have recently acquired a 2005 Formula Renault. The Dallara F3 more or less same as per Spanish championship but we have added a custom ECU and map, otherwise compliant. The Renault is an ex Formula Renault Asia car and is standard.

I was wondering if anyone can give a quick overview of F4 because I understand it can run multiple makes of chassis and if our cars will compy or suitable to enter? Also if any penalties are added ie weight to equalize performance.

Thanks

[ff90]

Why not try the monoposto championships www.monoposto.co.uk

Think you will find a home there but I would email the coordinator to be sure. Cars as in nearly all club championships have to run with a 40mm ride height, unless you go for the MVSF3Cup which mono also help run, good calendar too.

From the mono 2000 tech regs:

Typically Dallara F3, US FF2000, Formula Renault 2000, 2009 Formula Renault BARC eligible too.

Chassis must have been first produced for 2004 model year or earlier.
Standard production engines up to 2000cc capacity. Dry sump lubrication permitted. Flywheel free. Carburettors (free) or throttle body fuel injection, (subject to a 40mm per choke size restriction). Ford Zetec engines can have free cam timing (retaining standard camshaft and pulley).
Engines of manufacture and model as used in FIA international Formula 3 during 2004 or earlier, having a 25 millimeter maximum diameter air restrictor through which all air serving the induction is passed.
Complete cars complying with 2009 Formula Renault BARC Technical Regulations. The chassis may not be used with any other engine, nor the engine used

[Tempest-Racing]

I was told about this championship early last year when we were planning to move to the UK. I had a look and seemed like a series for tired and worn out single seaters. Did not really exicte me at the prospect of entering our cars. I see they have now update their website. What is the quality of driving and competition like?

I watched some rounds of the F4 championship on TV and it did looked interesting and cars were pushing some speed. Are F3 and Renault cars not allowed into F4?

Will check out Monoposto.

[andy97]

Certainly there are a few Dallaras running in Monoposto now and the cars at the front are smart & well engineered, albeit running at a 40mm ride height (and the Monoposto racing club is also now responsible for the MSVR Club F3 Championship, where your car may also be eligible at "normal F3 regs & ride heights) so more likely that you will find a home for the F3 car there. Not sure about the custom ECU & map, though - check with the club. However, I'm not sure that the F3 car is compliant in F4 at all without an engine and gearbox change (F4 is 4 speed 'box, I think).

The post 2000 Tatuus F Renault car will also be eligible for Monoposto (I think with a 27 mm restrictor, from memory) but again, I'm not aware that it is eligible for F4 (might be wrong). It will also be eligible for the BARC F Renault Champioship, though.

So to sum up, your options are not F4, they appear to be:

Dallara - MSV Club F3 or Monoposto 2000
F Renault - Monoposto 2000 or BARC F Renault

[andrewc]

Monoposto has a wide age range to contend and cars from the early 1980's up to early 2000 cars are catered for, with 6 different classes for single seaters, two bike engined class, 1600 and 1800, 2000 Classic and Mono 2000.

In the two 2 litre classes, every one of the 2010 championship rounds was won by a Dallara with one. These were either Tristan Cliffe in his F398, Jeremy Timms in his F397 or Richard Purcell in has F301, with the remaining podium places being usually taken by the these men as well. The exception was Malcolm Scott's Mono spec Van Diemen which became ultra wide at Mallory following Jeremy Timms retiring and Tristan Cliffe having gearbox problems meaning he had 3rd, 4th and 5th to play with.

There are new cars being readied for the 2011 season as well. A quick mental totting up suggests there could be 12 Dallaras out there.

For Monoposto you can run F3 engines with air restrictor providing they are mapped for pump fuel. Formula Renault providing you comply with BARC specifications with the older bodywork package, but you are now allowed to run the larger red restrictor, both cars at 40mm.

Alternatively FRenault BARC for the Renault (with smaller blue restrictor) or MSV F3 Cup for the F3 car providing it is in full F3 spec, at low ride height, on Sunoco fuel but on Avon control tyres.

Depending on the F3 cars engine spec would depend if MSV F3 Cup or Mono 2000 would be the best place to run it. For 2011 most of the season, Monoposto and MSV F3 cup are on the same race card.

[RPD Motorsport]

Although you 'can' run an 05 spec car in BARC Renault, I would advise against it. Every car is now 2009 spec with new aero and the restrictor size has gone up to 40mm and is now red.

With the new restrictor the car has the power to carry off the extra aero and the 04 spec bodywork has not got a chance. (Except at thruxton).

You can run it in Mono 2000 without the restrictor though, as I know several others who do and I have one one chap who did exactly that.

[andrewc]

Mono last year required the blue restrictor, but for 2011 the red larger restrictor is permitted.

http://www.startline.org.uk/slol55/fr/fr.htm outlines the recent regulation changes.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by RPD Motorsport

Although you 'can' run an 05 spec car in BARC Renault, I would advise against it. Every car is now 2009 spec with new aero and the restrictor size has gone up to 40mm and is now red.

With the new restrictor the car has the power to carry off the extra aero and the 04 spec bodywork has not got a chance. (Except at thruxton).

You can run it in Mono 2000 without the restrictor though, as I know several others who do and I have one one chap who did exactly that.

Your F3 should be able to Run in Mono and be competitive, not sure what the situation would be for club F3 as I understand they only allow spec F3 engines and the Toyota unit is not a spec engine.. I read this some time ago. Might be best to double check.

As for your Formula Renault, I would agree with RPD, the 05 spec would not be competitive in BARC and you would need the 2007-2009 Aero and thats not cheap. If F4 requires 4 speed boxes etc, then thats out of the question for you.

The only option would be Mono, but you will be at an immediate disadvantage power/torque wise. You can be bloody good in the corners, but you will not be able to hold of the F3 dallaras who will be much faster down the straights and this will show on faster tracks.

Yes they have given us the use of the red restrictors, but it will not be making much of a difference at all.. 2mm increase is not going to bring the Renaults on par with the F3 engines. Better than nothing I guess.

[JNWRF01]

Lots of good advice on here...

F4 is good as its more even playing field - everyone has to run 4 gears - same engine (Zetec 1800) same carbs same ignition etc.. However, tyres are now free - and its fair to say you go to Wales too often! But you do get garages at all tracks where there are some, and race at sociable hours of the day. Social side - some really good guys and girls in F4 and the 750MC are also a nice social bunch to have a beer with over the weekend.

Mono - never raced it but I am told really good bunch also. Its more run what you bring than say 5 yrs ago - but 100% offers more choice for single seater owners.

I don;t think the two compare as F4 is glorified more modern version of FF2000 and Mono is open single seater racing. Both have merits, good grids, competitive racing and good social scenes. I suspect with a 01 Dallara it will cost a fortune to graft a zetec into it - cheaper easier to buy a good F4 VD or Mygale - so its mono or clubF3.

Just as an aside - looking at lap times - surely its time for both clubs to have a good look at FRen cars - I would buy one for Mono - but not to finish 5th or 6th.. Why can;t they allow you to run a full UK spec car - michelin or clubF3 tyres only - leave everything else the same.. You will then be able to give the top mono boys a run for their money.. Make F4 allow them in - but only in current BARC spec (same laptimes at mo for both series). Would make sense .. but when does sense apply in racing??

[andrewc]

Mono2000 does not permit engines with variable valve timing. Formula Renaults have VVT, and are hence given dispensation to race, albeit in a restricted form. 2010 was the first year and they were using the BARC blue restrictor. Following analysis from the one person who consistently entered races, a decision was made to change to the larger red restrictor.

[JNWRF01]

so let me get this right - you can now enter a UK spec renault - ie the things that used to get around old Snetterton in 1.05s with young kids driving? If so - you are going to worry the front runners...

Do you have to run the michelins? or can you slap a set of avons or dunlops on?

[andrewc]

Free tyre choice. Ride height at 40mm. The club will monitor performances to see if the restrictor size needs re-adjustment, was hard to evaluate it last season.

Antel ran Tony Bishop for most of the 2010 season, and for the opening rounds had two Formula Renault BARC hotshots join as a race practise, but those two were not seen again in Mono. We had one person play twice early in the season in the car that RF_Racer now owns, and RF_Racer came out at the tail end of the season. It must be said that it was Tony's first season of racing.

[Tempest-Racing]

Interesting comments and very informative. I will contact the administrators about if our F3 Dallara can be accepted into Monoposto or MSRV F3 and if any changes to spec are needed. We still have the original ECU. We only added a mappable ECU to customise the maps for a hotter climate and fuel we used.

I see that for 2011 both Monoposto and MSRV F3 will be at the same meeting, so that is a plus in terms of logistics.

What is the spec of the F3 engines used in Monoposto? What kind of power are they making. Looking at pictures some seem to be running carbs.

Our Formula Renault has been raced in unrestricted form we have also done testing with it. Not sure what the effect of restricting the engine will have on drivability and power.

RF Racer, you say that the Renault will be at a disadvantage, have you done any tests if so what differences did you notice with and with out restrictor?

Finally what kind of fuel do people use? Last year we tested using Sunoco race fuel, but I understand for UK championships the fuel rating must not exceed 100Ron.

[andrewc]

All the front runners choose to run a road car derived engine, with low compression with standard internals on either carbs or for 2010 season throttle body injection was introduced. F3 engine fitting kits are used to mount the engines - so cam cover, sump, flywheel etc.,

You can run a F3 spec engine (high compression) but with a mandatory restrictor and must be remapped to run on standard pump fuel. A few people do this but the combination of lower octane fuel and the air restrictor means they are down on power compared to the road car sourced engines.
This spec of engine will be more competitive in MSV F3 where it can run on the grade of fuel it was designed for, against other cars all running similar engines.

Originally Posted by Tempest-Racing

Interesting comments and very informative. I will contact the administrators about if our F3 Dallara can be accepted into Monoposto or MSRV F3 and if any changes to spec are needed. We still have the original ECU. We only added a mappable ECU to customise the maps for a hotter climate and fuel we used.

I see that for 2011 both Monoposto and MSRV F3 will be at the same meeting, so that is a plus in terms of logistics.

What is the spec of the F3 engines used in Monoposto? What kind of power are they making. Looking at pictures some seem to be running carbs.

Our Formula Renault has been raced in unrestricted form we have also done testing with it. Not sure what the effect of restricting the engine will have on drivability and power.

RF Racer, you say that the Renault will be at a disadvantage, have you done any tests if so what differences did you notice with and with out restrictor?

Finally what kind of fuel do people use? Last year we tested using Sunoco race fuel, but I understand for UK championships the fuel rating must not exceed 100Ron.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

so let me get this right - you can now enter a UK spec renault - ie the things that used to get around old Snetterton in 1.05s with young kids driving? If so - you are going to worry the front runners...

Do you have to run the michelins? or can you slap a set of avons or dunlops on?

No, they are not letting us run the car non restricted. Yes an unrestricted car would lap old Snetterton in 1:04~1:05. Restricted cars are doing them in 1:08~1:09 as per last years BARC cars. Biggest problem we will have at Snetterton is the long straight, The Renaults will get eaten up. Not going to get much more than 130 in restricted form, where as the F3's will be doing 140+. Nothing more to say than that.

Tyres are free, but the Michelins are a harder compound than the soft Avon A53's. So tyres are also something than needs to be looked at to make the FR competitive as poss.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by Tempest-Racing

Interesting comments and very informative. I will contact the administrators about if our F3 Dallara can be accepted into Monoposto or MSRV F3 and if any changes to spec are needed. We still have the original ECU. We only added a mappable ECU to customise the maps for a hotter climate and fuel we used.

I see that for 2011 both Monoposto and MSRV F3 will be at the same meeting, so that is a plus in terms of logistics.

What is the spec of the F3 engines used in Monoposto? What kind of power are they making. Looking at pictures some seem to be running carbs.

Our Formula Renault has been raced in unrestricted form we have also done testing with it. Not sure what the effect of restricting the engine will have on drivability and power.

RF Racer, you say that the Renault will be at a disadvantage, have you done any tests if so what differences did you notice with and with out restrictor?

Finally what kind of fuel do people use? Last year we tested using Sunoco race fuel, but I understand for UK championships the fuel rating must not exceed 100Ron.

I have data for both, PM me your email and I will send it to you.

[andy97]

Tempest-Racing, might I suggest you look at the Monoposto forum & ask people on there about the relative merits of Dallaras, F3 engines & BARC spec F Renaults etc in Monoposto 2000 as many of the people in Mono have a great deal of relevant experience and expertise of all these issues but don't necessarily see or join in with the debates on 10-Tenths.

[andy97]

This is also worth a read, specifically on the F Renault in Monoposto issue:
http://www.startline.org.uk/slol55/fr/fr.htm

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

No, they are not letting us run the car non restricted. Yes an unrestricted car would lap old Snetterton in 1:04~1:05. Restricted cars are doing them in 1:08~1:09 as per last years BARC cars. Biggest problem we will have at Snetterton is the long straight, The Renaults will get eaten up. Not going to get much more than 130 in restricted form, where as the F3's will be doing 140+. Nothing more to say than that.

Tyres are free, but the Michelins are a harder compound than the soft Avon A53's. So tyres are also something than needs to be looked at to make the FR competitive as poss.

True I was along side a FRenault in testing (not one of the cars thats been out in mono2000) I believe a UKFR car all the down the Rivett straight in my FFZetec there was nothing in it those F3 cars running on carbs fly past.

Why not rolling road them to equal out the power with the air restrictor?

[JNWRF01]

and therein lies the prob with Monoposto (in my opinion) - too many choices/options and nobody really knows who is hot or not. Club F3 and F4 are pretty easy to understand as everyone has the same power, fuel, box and until this year - tyres.

[andy97]

I don't know, Its pretty clear to me who is quick & who is not in each category within Mono and the balancing of performane within each individual class seem OK. The intro of BARC F Renault spec cars in 2010 has been an experiment which has been refined but other than that it seems reasonable for a club series. Remember Mono has 2 grids, usually with Mono 2000 & Mono 2000 Classic in one race and usually Mono 1400/1000 (the bike engined cars), Mono 1800 & Mono 1600 in another race but within each seperate category the front runners are clear as are the slow drivers!

[JNWRF01]

its all too confusing for me - that is why i am trying FF1600...!!

[andrewc]

Its not that complicated when you separate out the different classes. Mono take two, occasionally three grids, depending on circuit.

Generally 2000 and 2000 Classic (older two litres) take one grid. 1000 and 1400 (bike engined Jedis / Speads) take the other and 1600/1800 are spread depending on how the numbers fall best.

Overall race wins are normally taken by a Mono2000 car and a Mono1000 car unless it rains, in which case the slightly softer Mono2000 Classics with cockpit adjustable roll bars can have an advantage.

They must be doing something right, the championships for all classes went almost to the wire in 2010, and the grids have been close to capacity.

I know some people like Mono because unlike Club F3 which is for cars in period F3 spec, Mono allows you to experiment with different things.

[Tempest-Racing]

We are planning to do some testing with our experienced driver early March, indeed if the restrictor does some what limit the cars capability to compete at the sharp end we will have to reconsider entering into the Monoposto 2000 class.

We are in business to give our drivers a chance to fight out in front and not to make up the numbers.

As for the Dallara I have got the contact details for John Gray and will be sending him an email later today.

[andy97]

Make sure the test is done at 40mm min ride height & with the correct restrictor (37mm) to get a true comparison with Mono times.

At Snett last year the fastest BARC F Renault time was 1 min 7.8 (at normal BARC, ie low, ride heights & on Michelins) compared to the Mono 2000 lap record at 1 min 7.7, I think, at 40mm ride height.

Maybe there are also different tyres to fit the Tatuus chassis?? Tyres in Mono are free and yet RF racer indicates that the Michelins are harder.

Please let us know how you get on.

As for the Dallara, I seem to remember that the Toyota engines used in the Spanish series were of a slightly different spec to those used in the UK & the European series for reasons of longevity & cost control. Team West-Tec ran cars in the Spanish F3 Championship & it maybe that they will be able to help with a view on the relevant spec of your engine as compared to that run in MSV F3.