[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[S griffin]

Ross would have sorted either of them out properly if he had been one of their team boss

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm not so sure they're different when it comes to managing their *main* talent, ie hamilton and verstappen. i can't imagine toto having a go at hamilton as much as horner has to tiptoe around verstappen a bit.

publicly he seemed fairly stern with his rules of engagement between LH and Nico...although i guess there was a pattern of Nico following the rules and then the rules being modified if/when it was LH who ran afoul of them.

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ross would have sorted either of them out properly if he had been one of their team boss

would he have? i guess not exactly a team boss in the Schumi days but i dont feel either Brawn or Todt had much success in reigning in Michael when he was mad. afterall, Ferrari can do no wrong...much like the cult over at RB.

dont recall how Ron Denis reacted in the Senna vs Irvine aftermath.

anyways, hard to compare management styles here as no doubt a good manager treats each 'star' differently given the unique aspects of that star's character.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ross would have sorted either of them out properly if he had been one of their team boss

Szafnauer - Ocon's boss, thinks that it was Max's fault, so I doubt that he is overly worried, besides Ocon was in 18th place at the time of the clash.

Hamilton's opinion is the correct one, and he backed up his words earlier avoiding contact with Max:

"That kid is dangerous, so it wasn't worth the risk." Lewis team radio Hungary 2017.

Up to now Verstappen has always been the driver with the least to lose in a contact, most of the people who have been avoiding him are in a battle for the championship, this time however he was the one with something to lose, and he lost!

In Max's overtake of Vettel earlier in the race, Vettel had to take evasive action to stop a contact, if Vettel had not done so Verstappen may well have been out at that point.

[Adam43]

The situation of a backmarker unlapping themselves is rare. Not one you come across often. You make a good point about an aspect that can be applied to other situations and is a general consideration when racing. Whatever the situation the consideration of who has most to lose is a valid one and can be applied to many varied situations.

It also interesting that it is Lewis being all grown up and wise!

[Mike Harte]

It may have been mentioned on this thread already, but I cannot remember seeing it, but what did the RBR pit crew tell Verstappen in the short period leading up to the clash.

Under these type of circumstances, the driver's engineer (or other person on the pit-wall) will tell the driver that the car behind is catching up quickly, but that he should let him pass as he is no threat to his position.

I can only assume, therefore, that something like that was told to Verstappen, but he ignored the advice/instruction. But even a vibrating rear view mirror should have informed him that it was a pink car approaching quickly, not a Silver Arrow, therefore there was no need to defend against an overtaking manoeuvre.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

There was every need. Sitting behind a backmarker and the having to overtake again loses time. Verstappen signalled he was not going to be passed, Ocon ignored it and caused the wreck.

By the way, just assuming out of thin air they told Verstappen something when you have no idea is not very smart.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The situation of a backmarker unlapping themselves is rare. Not one you come across often. You make a good point about an aspect that can be applied to other situations and is a general consideration when racing. Whatever the situation the consideration of who has most to lose is a valid one and can be applied to many varied situations.

It also interesting that it is Lewis being all grown up and wise!

When Lewis said his bit on the radio in Hungary 2017, my respect for him went through the roof, his approach had changed completely, with the rest of his skills at that point, to me he had become something really special in a car.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

There was every need. Sitting behind a backmarker and the having to overtake again loses time. Verstappen signalled he was not going to be passed, Ocon ignored it and caused the wreck.

That is exactly the risk that Max was unable to get his head around, if he had let Ocon go, he would have been given a blue flag if he caught Ocon again, so the loss would have been minimal compared to the risk of fighting the backmarker.
If Ocon had been fighting Max for position, Max would have been penalized for causing this contact, no question.
If Ocon had got past and a safety car had come out his result would have been considerably improved by being on the lead lap too, so well worth making the pass.

It would be interesting to know how many clean passes have been made on Max, we all saw Hamilton treating him like the back of a horse and failing to pass him.

As far as Verstappen being told that Ocon was behind him, the point is moot, Max had defended against Ocon at the end of the straight, had Ocon alongside him in turn 1 and collided with a car that was alongside him in turn 2, he knew who it was, where the car was, and what it was trying to do he was overly robust with someone who had nothing to lose and lost.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Maybe add a few more ifs to that post so it makes sense

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

There was every need. Sitting behind a backmarker and the having to overtake again loses time. Verstappen signalled he was not going to be passed, Ocon ignored it and caused the wreck.

Alternatively, Ocon signalled he was going to pass, Verstappen ignored it and caused the wreck.

[Compromised]

Where did Max finish EffectiveSprinkles?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Alternatively, Ocon signalled he was going to pass, Verstappen ignored it and caused the wreck.

Alternatively, Toto told Ocon to crash into Verstappen

[Skam85]

30 pages, and no Vettel hate.
Welcome to a new era of Ten-Tenths

[wnut]

Peter Windsor's take on Verstappen v Ocon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtbTi91AmpQ

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Peter Windsor's take on Verstappen v Ocon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtbTi91AmpQ

That's an excellent summary of the incident, from Peter Windsor. That's exactly how I saw it at the time. Ocon was on the kerb of Turn 2, Verstappen came across hit Ocon and blew it.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Alternatively, Toto told Ocon to crash into Verstappen

Is that supposition

[E.B]

Originally Posted by sizzle

Is that supposition

No, total fact. Must be true because Dr. Helmut Marko said so..... (but he often seems to have a one eyed approach to problem solving.)

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by wnut

Peter Windsor's take on Verstappen v Ocon:

Good analysis of the whole incident. Objective as well......

[Taxi645]

Mr. Windsor is mixing up two things: The discuscion of whether we should have a "blue flag regime" as he calls it on the one hand and the question if Ocon's move was just.

He is basically saying we shouldn't have the blue flag regime so Ocon was right. Conveniently forgotting that the blue flag regime is actually still there and not magically dissapeared as he hoped.

Now if his point would've that if the blue flag regime wasn't there anymore then Ocon's move was completely legit I would fully agree. However that is and was not the case.

I would not be against removing the blue flag regime persee, but with the current cars unable to follow each other on many circuits that would be very unwise at this moment. If however in 2021 the rules proove to be effective in allowing cars to drive close to each other then in 2022 at the earliest changing the blue flag rules and thus the "regime" could make sense. In that situation Ocon's move would been completely ok. However as said, that is not the case and Mr. Winsor is conveniently forgotting that fact.

[Peter Mallett]

Ocon was perfectly within his right to overtake and unlap himself.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

There was every need. Sitting behind a backmarker and the having to overtake again loses time. Verstappen signalled he was not going to be passed, Ocon ignored it and caused the wreck.

By the way, just assuming out of thin air they told Verstappen something when you have no idea is not very smart.

I didn't realise that's how motor racing worked. The driver in front signals he's not going to be passed, and the driver behind accepts this and stops attempting to overtake.

I think we've found the real reason racing in F1 is so bad. It isn't the cars, tracks, aero, tyres or anything like that. It's that the driver in front is allowed to decide if the driver behind is allowed to pass.

[crmalcolm]

Previously, Whiting's comments about expectation were used to justify Verstappen not conceding the pass.
The same can be said of his other comment "one would expect Red Bull to say ‘Ocon’s got the pace, just let him through'"

So if Verstappen can expect Ocon to pass cleanly, then Ocon can also expect Red Bull to give Verstappen that instruction.

If Ocon has been penalised because what he may have expected to occur did not turn out that way (and I repeat, the penalty is justified), then Verstappen should also be criticised for driving to expectation and not what was evident at the time.

[jimclark]

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Skam85

30 pages, and no Vettel hate.
Welcome to a new era of Ten-Tenths

Ocon would not have to overtake Vettel because the Ferrari driver would have probably made a mistake under the pressure and crashed out.

Have I restored forum normality? Is that better?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Not so fast you...


For the people wo are so enthusiastic about abandoning the blue flag rules, have you thougt it through? Have thoroughly the consequences of removing it (the lack of which regularly get's passed to F1 mangement/FIA from this forum)?

As we know many teams are deeply dependant on the manufacturs. Some probably wouldn't have been here anymore if not for the occassional leniency from certain engine suppliers.

Now imagine two leaders approaching a backmarker from such team. How the hell are we then going to make sure the driver of that dependent team or belonging to some manufacturers driver program or being managed by someone is going to give both leaders the same resistense in passing?

And don't be so naieve to think that won't happen. It might not even require a certain phonecall from one office to another.

I suspect the people in power will think this hard and deep before easily abondaning the blue flag rule. Let's focus on levelling the field more so blue flags are much less needed in stead of rushing into ill conceived ideas.