.....or Forever Hold Your Peace

[midgetman]

Astute readers of this august forum may have discerned some dis-satisfaction with the way historic motor sport is going. Well, Speak Now...

...because the MSA is holding a Forum with the Historic Committee next month! I think it's June 17th and at Silverstone but the pesky Issuu from the MSA is causing me issues.

They are also seeking new committee members, so if anyone has a burning desire to change the Historic world now is the time or....

...Forever Hold Your Peace!

[Mike Bell]

Well, I went! So did many other racers, preparers and organisers. So many they ran out of chairs. It resulted in 3hrs of intense discussion between the MSA and the floor over many topics of concern, covering all Historic Motor Sport.

John Symes has promised a report on the meeting in the next MSA news, and the representatives have several points to put to the FIA on our behalf.....

[Heightswitch]

What were some of the key themes raised Mike?

[Nick JM]

Lack of decent ale at the trackside bars and why can't the breakfasts be as good as they are at Mallory?!!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Nick JM

Lack of decent ale at the trackside bars and why can't the breakfasts be as good as they are at Mallory?!!

If the assembled throng had felt the MSA could influence such matters I'm sure the questions would have been asked!

Most time spent on aspects of the HTP application procedure, not surprisingly, and the recent cost sliding scale introduced. Incidentally, rumours were buzzing a month ago that the FIA were about to 'bow to pressure' and change the life of new HTPs to 10 rather than 5 years. This hasn't happened yet, but due to the fact that a decision has to be made by the 'World Council' who are yet to meet / vote on the matter.

The requirement to have an International licence for competing in races outside your own country deemed to be 'championship' events, and the Stress ECG that goes with it, also consumed some time. Interesting that even Masters, an organisation acknowledged to be at the 'high end' of the market, reckon to have lost customers due to the rule. The change is affecting organisers all over Europe, and from what was suggested the FIA are (quite rightly) getting flack from all over. Expect a change eventually, but not quickly.....

Safety- ROPS and 'modern safety equipment' (HANS etc) discussed. No changes in legislation on the cards, but as you would expect and hope, constantly under review. Fortunately no knee jerk reactions to the incidents of the previous couple of years.

Several other more specific matters also discussed, and no doubt if the MSA feel that are of interest they will be included in the report when published.

Apparently it is a while since the last 'open day' discussion on Historics was held, but judging from the turnout and general level of frustration felt by competitors, preparers, organisers and the MSA themselves, it will be a lot less time before the next one- hopefully!

[Mike Harte]

Mike, thanks for the abridged version.

However, as thrashed out on here so recently, was there no mention of driving standards, or maybe I might have said, the lack of them.

That quite rightly has been generating quite a bit spleen busting on these august pages, and I acknowledge that I have been as guilty of that as the next man, yet seems to be missing from your potted resume of the meeting.

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Mike, thanks for the abridged version.

However, as thrashed out on here so recently, was there no mention of driving standards, or maybe I might have said, the lack of them.

That quite rightly has been generating quite a bit spleen busting on these august pages, and I acknowledge that I have been as guilty of that as the next man, yet seems to be missing from your potted resume of the meeting.

After 3 hours with so many topics discussed you would need several pages to report the whole meeting/forum...there was a lot of spleen busting as you put it about HTPs , however driving standards was discussed. It was slightly unfortunate (IMHO) that the discussion was a little bit hijacked
by one person involved with the Mugello 'affair' , but putting that aside there were some useful contributions:
One view put forward was that marshalls observing races are now so used to modern racing with associated paint swapping that when they see this happening in historic events they fail to report incidents because they perceive the on track behavioueras 'normal' Apparently steps are being taken to right this.
It was also pointed out that clubs ( eg HSCC) are now actively policing driving standards; that many circuits (especially MSV) have camera now; and of course there are the plethora of in car cameras nowadays.
Finally, the MSA pointed out that many 'aggrieved' drivers who had been involved in on-track incidents were not sufficiently familiar with judicial procedure (blue book) , and so were potentially losing out, and so encouraged
anyone finding themselves in that position to lodge a formal protest (plus ££s deposit)

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Mike, thanks for the abridged version.

However, as thrashed out on here so recently, was there no mention of driving standards, or maybe I might have said, the lack of them.

That quite rightly has been generating quite a bit spleen busting on these august pages, and I acknowledge that I have been as guilty of that as the next man, yet seems to be missing from your potted resume of the meeting.

Yes, they were discussed, but the MSA took the position that first, individual driving standards come under the CoC remit at a meeting, and second processes are in place for us as drivers to protest any particular incident should we feel strongly enough. Penalty points can be applied.... One vintage club feel that perhaps observers trackside are so used to seeing contact in moderns that they can be hardened to it, and maybe more understanding / education on the discipline of Historic racing could be useful. One organiser acknowledged that responsibility for each other on track had to be more emphasised to drivers by organisers, something that is happening more, hopefully.

Apologies for any repetition with pomracer's post above- overlapped!

[morninggents]

What was the Mugello 'affair' referred to by Pomracer?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by morninggents

What was the Mugello 'affair' referred to by Pomracer?

An incident during Peter Auto event earlier this season, which led to the driving standards thread being started by JR.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Yes, they were discussed, but the MSA took the position that first, individual driving standards come under the CoC remit at a meeting, and second processes are in place for us as drivers to protest any particular incident should we feel strongly enough. Penalty points can be applied.... One vintage club feel that perhaps observers trackside are so used to seeing contact in moderns that they can be hardened to it, and maybe more understanding / education on the discipline of Historic racing could be useful. One organiser acknowledged that responsibility for each other on track had to be more emphasised to drivers by organisers, something that is happening more, hopefully.

Apologies for any repetition with pomracer's post above- overlapped!

Is it just me, or are there others who think like me, that the attitude taken by the MSA, as outlined by Mike B and pomracer, is some what akin to burying their collected heads in the sand.

Surely, if driving standards are to be improved, then it has to be done to a uniform standard and that can only be mandated, in the UK, by the MSA. It's all very good for them to say from their ivory towers that it is the responsibility of individual CoCs and organising clubs, but how can you adjudge a driver's standard at one meeting when the CoC at a second meeting can take a totally different point of view.

As I wrote on another thread, this matter should be initiated by the FIA and then cascaded down through each country's MSA and so on down the chain of command. Then, as they now like to say, everybody will be singing from the same hymn sheet.

And the RAC MSA should be taking this matter to the FIA, and putting pressure on them to start the ball rolling. [/end of sermon]

[Al Weyman]

Simple answer to that, The MSA BTCC, crack down heavy on that and it will go down the line.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Simple answer to that, The MSA BTCC, crack down heavy on that and it will go down the line.

No, Al, the problems start at the so-called "pinnacle" of motor-racing, i.e. Formula 1. If my recollection is correct, the driver who many would like to claim is the best GP pilot ever born (not my view, by the way) Michael Schumacher forced three different drivers off the track. There was Ralf, his own brother for goodness' sake, who went perilously near to the pit wall and was lucky to escape unscathed, then Massa, his own team-mate for goodness' sake, and not forgetting old JV for which MS finally got
punished with his exclusion of that year's championship.

That is just one driver from F1; there are others who transgress and are not adequately penalised.

You might be able to temporarily improve driving standards locally starting half way down the food-chain, but, by doing it that way, you will not be able to alter the mindset of your average novice driver who will believe that it is his right to emulate the behaviour of his F1 idols. In my little mind, these matters always have to come down from the top, otherwise it would be like the senior managers of the XYZ Bank being able to get away with things, like fiddling the books, that the most junior employees would be sacked/prosecuted for doing.

[Chigley]

You will find that this Post Chief (old money Observer) has no qualms at all about booking/reporting all contact, side to side as well as front to rear, and plenty of my colleagues are of the same view. However, door handle to door handle racing will produce the occasional touch which in isolation is overlooked but the occasional nerf out the way is not.
Your problem arises when you visit circuits that do not see much historic (proper) racing and are predominantly used by "modern" championships/series. That also goes for PC's who only see historic racing occasionally.
The remedy? on the marshalling side get your coordinator to speak to the Chief Observer and have driving standards emphasised at the morning briefing/sign-on.
The racing side; I would have thought diligent application of a baseball bat once the culprit takes removes their helmet.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Chigley

You will find that this Post Chief (old money Observer) has no qualms at all about booking/reporting all contact, side to side as well as front to rear, and plenty of my colleagues are of the same view. However, door handle to door handle racing will produce the occasional touch which in isolation is overlooked but the occasional nerf out the way is not.

I'm certainly of the same view.

Your problem arises when you visit circuits that do not see much historic (proper) racing and are predominantly used by "modern" championships/series. That also goes for PC's who only see historic racing occasionally.

Some "modern" championships/series are just as strict on driving standards as most historics. I've been around long enough to know which clubs take driving standards seriously & will take appropriate action on misdemeanours - these are the clubs whose meetings come top of my list of meetings to marshal at. Haven't done a BTCC meeting for ten years or so . . .

The remedy? on the marshalling side get your coordinator to speak to the Chief Observer and have driving standards emphasised at the morning briefing/sign-on.

I'm in favour of clubs/championships/series appointing their own Driving Standards Observers. They are in a better position to know the individuals who need watching than those of us who may only see them once a year & can observe away from fixed marshals' posts.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I'm certainly of the same view.

I'm in favour of clubs/championships/series appointing their own Driving Standards Observers. They are in a better position to know the individuals who need watching than those of us who may only see them once a year & can observe away from fixed marshals' posts.

But all that needs co-ordinating, and a uniform standard adopted. That is where I believe the MSA has over-arching responsibility to make sure that Club A is dealing with standards exactly the same as Club B, etc.

[john ruston]

Buts it's not Club A,B or C.

It's usually race promotors who these days are usually short of entries and are interested in protecting their businesses and obtaining maximum income.

You cannot blame them.

If only the world could return to Clubs promoting series and BRDC sorting Silverstone Festival.

That John Webb has a lot to answer for!

[Mike Harte]

Well,following today's press releases from Charlie Whiting (on behalf of the FIA concerning driving during Grand Prixes), we now have the tail wagging the dog. Minor, whatever that means or how that will be determined, driving infractions will no longer be investigated by the stewards, and will be treated as "racing incidents".

With that attitude being taken by the FIA over driving standards at the "pinnacle" of "motor-sport", what chance is there of adequately driving up standards in the lower formulae. How will a CoC be able penalise a driver who drives badly when the driver can, legitimately, say to the CoC that it must be OK because he watched Johnny Fastboy doing exactly the same last weekend at the Snooze Grand Prix.

According to the FIA, this is, and here I am paraphrasing and using my own interpretation of what was said, they want to spice up the racing.

[Al Weyman]

I say BTCC because I once ran a racing club and it was necessary to suspend a driver from the club for a month because all the other guys were refusing to race with him. He turned up agressively on my doorstep and started arguing with me and immediately said 'Have you watched the BTCC on TV lately?' and this was over 15 years ago and its got no better since and is still a crash fest which I simply have no interest in. Also its saloons and I would say the majority of Historic racing is done in saloons or closed wheel cars not ex F1's or single seaters. BTW the driver stormed away and never returned as wasnt prepared to accept the suspension, good riddance we said! It was also done to another guy after I left the club but he was drunk and took out half the field in my mates old Camaro! He went on somewhere else (CSCC?) and got banned from there as well! It is really in the clubs hands as they can require membership to race and pulling membership means the offender can no longer compete unless they bow down to a threat of being sued as I mentioned earlier which we never would have done, bring it on!

[Adam43]

While it is nice to slag off F1 or BTCC, i just don't see the relevance. We participate in amateur sport, the equivalent of Sunday five aside, but with a more expensive ball. It's different. I don't drive like an F1 driver for three reasons, the car isn't up to it, I'm not up to it, and it is a different.

I don't understand, why is it even compared?

[Al Weyman]

Because its on TV

[Adam43]

No, don't get why that is relevant.

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by Adam43

No, don't get why that is relevant.

Because to Joe Public and the impressionable they are the "stars", the "idols" the "shining example of the best" and they think that is what racing is about and attempt to emulate them. "That's what I need to do to succeed". So while JP and the young rocket kids do that it "thrills" the mob who want more because it is "entertaining" and they F1, BTCC .... don't have to pay for the damage out of their own pockets. If they had to suffer the consequences of their actions directly ie pay for damage to their car, feel the full weight of proper administration of the regs then "maybe" they would set a better example to JP and the impressionable who "maybe" would eventually appreciate what proper sportsmanlike racing is all about.

I'll now stop dreaming and descend from Fantasy World.

[Mike Harte]

In response to Ian's (Chigley) post above, I am pleased to note that a member of the Marshal/Safety team can actually see the relevance in what I have been trying to say.

This is no different to the lower echelons of football. I have actually heard 8 year old youngsters playing in a Sunday league arguing with the "ref" because they saw Emile PaidFarTooMuch get away with exactly the same move yesterday on "Football Live" on the box.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Adam43

No, don't get why that is relevant.

Because it creates a culture of "how racing should be". No one televised incident causes drivers to bash others out of the way but repeated drip, drip, drip gradually allows impressionable people to accept it as the norm.

It's the whole principle behind marketing, embedding your product in the mindset of the prospect. It's why fag advertising was banned, to try and change the nation's attitude to smoking. no single advert caused you to rip open a packet of Bensons, but the use of high profile celebrities and sports make the dreadful things acceptable.

Same in motor sport, repeated showing and praising of bash and crash racing or of driving off the circuit gradually makes it commonplace and therefore acceptable.