Grand Prix L'age d'Or

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by pomracer

I was not there but have heard reports of some pretty aggressive driving in GTSCC, ......and understand the grid was opened up to non italian cars to make up numbers. Only problem was that the race seemed to attract a number of cobras (non genuine) intent on banging doors at 150mph on the straight. Believe Jon Minshaw was punted off , a la touring car style, mid corner ....but then I suppose if you go out to play with the big boys ( or boys with big pockets) then you should expect a bit of that -?

not that big if the have fake cobra's!! it aint what it used to be.....
I bumped into Julius Thurgood yesterday and having had a chat with him cannot wait to have my Mk2 ready to go club racing with HRDC.
He got the mood of historic clubbies bang on 12 years ago when he set up Top Hat to cater for endurance racing and I think he has done it again albeit for different reasons...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Since no-one else has said it, I note that our Ten Tenther, Simon Hadfield had a fantastic weekend at Dijon including sorting out the 4 litre 250 GTO (called 330GTO only retrospectively surely?) of Carlo Vogele with my favourite racing car of all time, Wolfgang Friedrich's unique and original Aston Project 212. I've banged on about how quick this car is over the years, and felt like a lone voice, but proof of the pudding is in the eating, so thanks Simon for delivering on my belief!

This was the Pre '63 race, I see, John. Yes, nice to see something other than the 330 take the honours- beautiful though it is!

I checked last year's results and see that starters for this Pre '63 were down from 34 to 27 cars. That is a great shame because it is a super series and (no bias!) one where a Morgan Plus 4 can be competitive. Witness Dion Kremer in 3rd place.

Meanwhile 60 cars started the GTSCC race. Looks like the grid on this occasion included a lot of cars from other Pre '66 series, which may be reason for the observation made a few posts ago and the comment (about one driver) made by Marcus in Autosport last week. I would hazard a guess that the reserves were put into the 'Italian' race which otherwise would have had only 9 starters. Sounds a fair way of everyone getting a race despite looking odd on paper!

Will be interesting to see the GTSCC and to a lesser extent Pre '63 line ups at Silverstone Classic bearing in mind that Masters GD will be there as well.

Good to hear that weather at Dijon reverted to type after the wet and cold last year. Fingers crossed it is the former again next year as am determined to be there again!

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Will be interesting to see the GTSCC and to a lesser extent Pre '63 line ups at Silverstone Classic bearing in mind that Masters GD will be there as well.

I'm not sure that the GTSCC has a slot at the Classic this year - only the Italian Historic Car Cup and is there a Pre'63 race? There's pre '61 sportscars and pre '66 GTs (presumably The Masters).

Could be wrong though

[Ben Shuckburgh]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

I'm not sure that the GTSCC has a slot at the Classic this year - only the Italian Historic Car Cup and is there a Pre'63 race? There's pre '61 sportscars and pre '66 GTs (presumably The Masters).

Could be wrong though

There's a 45 min combined race for GTSCC and IHCC on Saturday late afternoon

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Ben Shuckburgh

There's a 45 min combined race for GTSCC and IHCC on Saturday late afternoon

Aah! Thanks for clarifying that Ben. I didn't see anything at Silverstone for the GTSCC when I got the entry pack at the start of the season - wish I had realised as I would have tried for an entry!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

I'm not sure that the GTSCC has a slot at the Classic this year - only the Italian Historic Car Cup and is there a Pre'63 race? There's pre '61 sportscars and pre '66 GTs (presumably The Masters).
Could be wrong though

Yes, as Ben says- the entry for IHCC has been opened up to get a bigger grid, I have been led to believe. My neighbours have their E Type entered. May still be space? Pre '63 is renamed RAC TT for the Classic. Pre '66 GT is Gentleman Drivers....... Confused?

Hypothetically, with Legends SM Trophy present as well that is 4 races my Plus 4 could have done at one meeting

[Ben Shuckburgh]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

Aah! Thanks for clarifying that Ben. I didn't see anything at Silverstone for the GTSCC when I got the entry pack at the start of the season - wish I had realised as I would have tried for an entry!

I think they were offered it late as Vanessa sent out invitations quite recently.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Yes, as Ben says- the entry for IHCC has been opened up to get a bigger grid, I have been led to believe. My neighbours have their E Type entered. May still be space? Pre '63 is renamed RAC TT for the Classic. Pre '66 GT is Gentleman Drivers....... Confused?

Hypothetically, with Legends SM Trophy present as well that is 4 races my Plus 4 could have done at one meeting

And therein lies the problem... too many series chasing the same quarry

[fangio]

Originally Posted by pomracer

I was not there but have heard reports of some pretty aggressive driving in GTSCC, ......and understand the grid was opened up to non italian cars to make up numbers. Only problem was that the race seemed to attract a number of cobras (non genuine) intent on banging doors at 150mph on the straight. Believe Jon Minshaw was punted off , a la touring car style, mid corner ....but then I suppose if you go out to play with the big boys ( or boys with big pockets) then you should expect a bit of that -?

You'd better check reality before you post accusations like that. I saw the on-board video and Minshaw just shut the door suddenly on the (original) Cobra with an unnecessary move.
He could have left enough room for the Cobra to keep 2 wheels on the track.

[john ruston]

I know who Fangio is but who is Pomracer.

Makes comments that are unsubstantiated and hides behind a nonsense name.

Going for a decent discount at DT.

There were to many cars on grid but people live and learn.

Makes a change from the shortage of cars on grids.

The Italian nor the 1000Klm seem to be working.

I thought all Cobra's were kit cars really!

[John Turner]

pomracer has declared himself before:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=109

[fangio]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I know who Fangio is but who is Pomracer.

Makes comments that are unsubstantiated and hides behind a nonsense name.

Going for a decent discount at DT.

There were to many cars on grid but people live and learn.

Makes a change from the shortage of cars on grids.

The Italian nor the 1000Klm seem to be working.

I thought all Cobra's were kit cars really!

I agree; most circuits cannot handle 50-car grids and there are just too many pre-66 GT cars to put them all in one race.
The Italian Cup seems a good idea unless there are not enough cars; the split per-63 and pre-66 is probably a very good one or split the grids based on engine size. (up to 2.000 cc and over 2.000 cc)

The same goes for the 1000 km/CER/WSM etc. Split the grids in pre-66 and post-66; there is no sense in racing a GT40 on treaded Dunlop Racings against T70 Mk 3B's on any type of tyre.

John: there are many real original Cobra's (the chassis at least.....) and the kit-Cobra's are now outnumbered by the 2010 E-types..........

[Simon Hadfield]

The same goes for the 1000 km/CER/WSM etc. Split the grids in pre-66 and post-66; there is no sense in racing a GT40 on treaded Dunlop Racings against T70 Mk 3B's on any type of tyre.


I'm not sure about CER but in 1000KMs and WSM the Lola T70 Mk3B's run treaded Dunlop Racing tyres. Seems entirely (no pun intended) appropriate!

[fangio]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The same goes for the 1000 km/CER/WSM etc. Split the grids in pre-66 and post-66; there is no sense in racing a GT40 on treaded Dunlop Racings against T70 Mk 3B's on any type of tyre.


I'm not sure about CER but in 1000KMs and WSM the Lola T70 Mk3B's run treaded Dunlop Racing tyres. Seems entirely (no pun intended) appropriate!

I agree with the treaded tyres being appropriate for the Mk3B's, but the pre-66 GT40's on Dunlop races are totally outclassed by the post 66 Lola's. So also there it would probably work if the split is made pre- and post '66.

[Simon Hadfield]

Originally Posted by fangio

I agree with the treaded tyres being appropriate for the Mk3B's, but the pre-66 GT40's on Dunlop races are totally outclassed by the post 66 Lola's. So also there it would probably work if the split is made pre- and post '66.

But a legal GT40 is also totally outclassed by a pre-66 Lola - both on the same tyres - is it better being beaten by them?

[fangio]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

But a legal GT40 is also totally outclassed by a pre-66 Lola - both on the same tyres - is it better being beaten by them?

I agree and I know as I have both, but that doesn't matter, it's proper competition and there is always a car faster than another.
And not all drivers are the same!

I don't mind being beaten by a car from the same period.

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by John Turner

pomracer has declared himself before:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=109

Yes I have, and I suppose that I need to go and change my log in etc to my own name just in case I ruffle any more feathers.

My observations / view/ opinion.


There are others who I know agree with the sentiments expressed,regarding that particular race , and there are equally others who clearly don't. Isn't that what a forum is for?

[John Turner]

Yes, you were merely reporting back what you had heard, presumably from some who were there. It was for others to confirm or deny. I have no problem with that, and I think that you were perhaps judged a tad harshly ... but that's just my opinion.

[john ruston]

None of us have problem with ideas given and makes this place a better place.

I have had a big problem with these daft handles people use but that is old hat.whatever makes your boat float.

Good to get Sir Simon and Duke Hans involved.

Amazing that JM is being beaten in GTSCC in that expensive E Type .Suppose he can dominate Pre 63 this year in other one. Will the John Clark's car get any better.
Reliving his younger life.

Best of luck with those Cobras.Still specials built on Ace chassis.

It really doesn't matter in the real world.

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by john ruston

None of us have problem with ideas given and makes this place a better place.

I have had a big problem with these daft handles people use but that is old hat.whatever makes your boat float.

Good to get Sir Simon and Duke Hans involved.

Amazing that JM is being beaten in GTSCC in that expensive E Type .Suppose he can dominate Pre 63 this year in other one. Will the John Clark's car get any better.
Reliving his younger life.

Best of luck with those Cobras.Still specials built on Ace chassis.

It really doesn't matter in the real world.

No problem John.

I was probably a little strong in my description of the Dijon race, and stupidly mentioned the word 'punt' which is bound to bring the sky crashing down on ones head quite swiftly. No offence to either the 'puntee' or 'punter'.

Seriously though, there seemed to be an above average level of red mist that day, and several participants commented so in stronger terms than I used , which is unusual in my book. We all love a good race, but...

Did not intend to 'open the box' on cobras either, but there are some very original cars out there, some not so original, and some actual 'kit cars' from the chassis up :- they are called Kirkhams...so you are right! Would love to get one of each in scrut bay and compare chassis/suspension dimensions etc...but that's another thread entirely and i am being deliberately provocative ( donning hard hat now and heading for nuclear shelter)

Watched the Etype race at Brands - a cracker.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by pomracer

No problem John.


Did not intend to 'open the box' on cobras either, but there are some very original cars out there, some not so original, and some actual 'kit cars' from the chassis up :- they are called Kirkhams...so you are right! Would love to get one of each in scrut bay and compare chassis/suspension dimensions etc...but that's another thread entirely and i am being deliberately provocative ( donning hard hat now and heading for nuclear shelter)

Watched the Etype race at Brands - a cracker.

Given Masters and others are happily accepting continuation cars in other series (GT40's and Chevrons etc..) does it matter if some Cobra's are built on a Kirkham chassis? Which is more heinous a crime - a continuation car that is correct to spec or an original car that is "over developed"?

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Given Masters and others are happily accepting continuation cars in other series (GT40's and Chevrons etc..) does it matter if some Cobra's are built on a Kirkham chassis? Which is more heinous a crime - a continuation car that is correct to spec or an original car that is "over developed"?

Oops..here we go.
In short I am all for continuation cars.

Taking the Cobra example, a Kirkham makes huge sense as you can build yourself a really nice period facsimilie for a fraction of the cost of buying a genuine car and then converting to a race car.
So I certainly do not subscribe to the view that a nicely turned out Kirkham is a "heinous crime" ....in fact I would prefer to see a well built (by which I mean period appearance, and straight as opposed to 'bent') Kirkham than I would an original car which has had all period dash and instruments ripped out of it, 'wrong' arches and a horrible paint job.........not to mention all the unmentionable 'over developments' that make it go twice as quick.

So to answer your question , (I think), a 'straight' continuation car especially one where a big effort has been made to make it look 'right' , and period correct , stands head and shoulders over an original one which has been 'over developed'

The big problem is that there are both 'over developed' original cars and
'overdeveloped' Kirkhams out there - as there are of course with other marques and models.