Authenticity in Historic F2

[Ted Walker]

FT200 I would think

[James Murray]

Isn't there an FIA rule which allows any atlantic car to be converted to f2 spec? Also an FIA rule which allows iron block BDG's to use alloy blocks which is how 72 cars can do so.

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Isn't there an FIA rule which allows any atlantic car to be converted to f2 spec? Also an FIA rule which allows iron block BDG's to use alloy blocks which is how 72 cars can do so.

I kind of think that's exactly what I wouldn't want to see. Building an Atlantic to F2 spec, or vice versa, should be dependent on a car to that specification running in period in an International event. That would rule out the alloy block, however attractive the prospect. Correct period specification for chassis, bodywork, engine, transmission, wings and wheels is, I believe, what the HSCC want. Not a field which includes an assortment of mongrels based on their owner's rather imaginative interpretation of what might be correct. That's exactly what happened with the 2-litre sportscars. T212 Lolas with alloy-block BDG's, stretched chassis, running 40mm ground clearance. Nothing like this ever ran in period! It's not about being snobbish or pedantic. It's about being period-correct.

[James Murray]

I agree with you and think the FIA ruling is wrong but as it stands it permits the type of cars you have decribed in your last post to be created. You could take your original query a step further and make it car specific, preventing countless replications of one off cars being made because its convenient within the current rules.

[Simon Hadfield]

James, could you show me where these rules are? I was informed at Silverstone that "the FIA now allow two plane wings in place of an original single plane" - that was news to the FIA! I suspect that people are taking parts of other rules and applying them to suit their own ends, probably no real surprise there.

[James Murray]

Below is verbatim from Appendix K re BDG

- Ford BDG iron blocks may be replaced with aluminium blocks to the period specification, in cars of
period H.

Atlantic conversions were permitted when HF2 was originally set up weren't they? Lotus 69 Atlantic/March 71B with injected BDA etc. I could be wrong but I thought that was an FIA dispensation that still applies hence 77B with BDG or RT1 BDG for example or do they qualify under the 1 car raced in that config once rule..

[Simon Hadfield]

The key phrase in the first sentence is "period specification", and the Atlantic/Formula B to F2 swap was for 1600 F2 only and as far as I know remains so. As for the Ralt with a BDG one existed (I know, I restored it for the man who still owns it today!) and the March 77B BDG would appear to be the result of someone's overheated imagination. The bottom line is the car raced today should be a "snapshot" of that car at some point in its lifespan, not a menu of all the parts that may have been available at some time or other. Under FIA rules that car's "snapshot" may be replicated, whether that is a good or a bad thing is a topic for another thread. I would also point out that the resulting car should/must run to the rules in force of the latest period item on the car, so a March 722 modified to a 772P specification would run to the wing and nose overhang and total weight rules of a 77 car, for example.

[james c]

I guess the BDG thing is confusing, probably because so much of the development was carried out by tuners other than Cosworth. As I understand it Brian Hart designed and cast the first alloy blocks in 1972 finding their way into RS1600's that same year. It was a Brian Hart/Ford project, the blocks being avaliable from Ford Rallye Sport dealers not Cosworth. Looking through the results on F2 register there are several 1975cc BDA's in 1972 (effectively BDG's). It wasn't until later when Cosworth made their 1975cc engine that they designated it BDG.
Check out "Cosworth the search for power" by Graham Robson

[Ted Walker]

James and guess what ,a BT38 was one of first cars to use one !!!!!!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by james c

It wasn't until later when Cosworth made their 1975cc engine that they designated it BDG.

And the Cosworth BDG was iron block.

With apologies for butting into a very interesting discussion on cars that I know very liitle about!

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by james c

I guess the BDG thing is confusing, probably because so much of the development was carried out by tuners other than Cosworth. As I understand it Brian Hart designed and cast the first alloy blocks in 1972 finding their way into RS1600's that same year. It was a Brian Hart/Ford project, the blocks being avaliable from Ford Rallye Sport dealers not Cosworth. Looking through the results on F2 register there are several 1975cc BDA's in 1972 (effectively BDG's). It wasn't until later when Cosworth made their 1975cc engine that they designated it BDG.
Check out "Cosworth the search for power" by Graham Robson

Ok, so now I'm treading carefully, given that some of you are involved with engine builders who should have a pretty definitive view of these matters. However, my understanding of the BDA/BDG relationship does involve major differences in the cylinder heads (valve sizes/spark plugs). Is there also a positional issue with respect to cylinder head studs? I don't think it's simply a case of alloy vs iron blocks. "Effectively BDG" sounds like dangerous terminology to employ in this area.........

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Ray Mallock ran a '75B' in the off F2 race in 1975 with a BDG. Was this based on a 742?

Not after Thruxton 1975...
Thruxton he used an ex Coulon March 742. After the group shunt at the chicane he bought the prototype 75B from March and used that with BDG for the next year and a bit, though I think it was a BDX from Swindon, not a BDG to be precise. The car kept the plate off the 742 for carnet purposes, but there is correspondence and evidence from March to show which 75B was used.

So under British rules you could get away with a 2.0 BD in a 75B Atlantic, or indeed a BMW in a 77B [since de Dryver's car actually was off the 77B production run, and the basis of the first 772P also was] regardless of what the car you have actually ran.

I can only think of one 74B that might have run something bigger than a BDD in period and that's Chris Cramer's hillclimb car in 1974/5.

Stretton's 742 is the ex Laffite car, so ran a BMW in period. But I think the 742 ran almost anything in period anyway - depending on your definition of period. Carlo Giorgio's car seemed to have been tried with every variety of engine except a Renault, and if that fails, in 1976 Val Musetti ran both a 73B and a 742 bitsa, made out of an old development tub, with Swindon engines. [Paradoxically, the bitsa has now been "restored" to take a BMW]

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by chris bailey

Well, that certainly improves my confidence in the whole rules application area. Now comes the difficulty of understanding which engines are which. Certainly, in 1974, the only non-BMW M12 engined March 742 was a device driven by Carlo Giorgio. This started out with a BDA, switched to a Pinto (!!?) and then reverted to the BDA at the end of the year, presumably because the Transit van needed its engine back. Therefore, running the BDG is out of the question, as nobody appears to have used one. Looking for one that was used in later years is somewhat counter-productive, as the weight limit creeps up and faster cars start to enter the equation. So, back to the BDA or Pinto. Now, the Pinto route sounds an unlikely option (Giorgio's results back that up). So what capacity BDA? Can you squeeze the full 2-litres from a period-spec (iron?) block? Is a BDA going to be hopelessly outclassed by the BMW M12 brigade? If it is going to be the BDA, what specification can be run? When is a BDA not a BDA? When it's a BDX? I must confess that the whole BD series confuses the living daylights out of me. The BDG we have seems to have smaller spark plugs than a BDA. Is this because the bigger valves leave less room for the plug? Is the bore/stroke regulated (other than in relation to the overall swept volume)? Is there a definitive text out there somewhere, to which I could refer? If we have to acquire/build an engine, I'd hate to build it to the wrong parameters.

The Pinto was at one point going to be the "works" engine... There was supposed to be a deal for Brise to run a 742 with one in it.

However, Giorgio's engines in detail
Pinto all 1974, and 1975 to July
"BDA" appears Mugello 17 July 75 and used to end of season
Amaroli, first appears Vallelunga 9 May 1976, and this is Amaroli's own 6 cylinder engine, not their tuning of a BDA
BMW entered with one at Hockenheim, 17 April 1977 and I have the entry list somewhere... however that may have been purely aspirational as a
Hart 420R, then shows up in the car at Vallelunga 15 May 1977. This gets Giorgio into more races in 1977 than a 742 really had a right to. It stays in the car for 1978.

[grantp]

Chris Townsend's posts are most interesting.

The simple word 'carnet', when fully considered, has made some aspects of the Historic racing scene so much more obscure than it might have been.

[james c]

What do you think the engine builders are up to? We can have a good idea what a Cosworth spec BDG was like but there's no way we can be sure of the exact spec of a Hart/Felday/Smith 1975cc BDA. Head studs? All the same with exception of BDT, 10mm plugs? Sure. Cosworth would have taken a planned measured approach to the development of the BD series but there were plenty of others that just got stuck in with variying degrees of success. I may be wrong but providing the engine is still a BD and has the correct bore and stroke there's little you could do now that wouldn't have been done in period. F2 was big business I think if anything more radical stuff was tried back then.

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by james c

What do you think the engine builders are up to? We can have a good idea what a Cosworth spec BDG was like but there's no way we can be sure of the exact spec of a Hart/Felday/Smith 1975cc BDA. Head studs? All the same with exception of BDT, 10mm plugs? Sure. Cosworth would have taken a planned measured approach to the development of the BD series but there were plenty of others that just got stuck in with variying degrees of success. I may be wrong but providing the engine is still a BD and has the correct bore and stroke there's little you could do now that wouldn't have been done in period. F2 was big business I think if anything more radical stuff was tried back then.

I don't think the engine builders are "up to" anything. All I'm sure about is that more horsepower will help offset my self-confessed talent deficit. So obviously I would choose a BDG over a period-spec BDA. Just wouldn't want to become embroiled in controversy down the line. These engines cost a small fortune (by my standards at least) so the initial decision is crucial. Chassis and bodywork, on the other hand, are much easier to understand and "adjust". An engine to me is something I bolt in the back and use. I don't pretend to understand the details. However, people I know in the world of Historic Rallying (Mk 1 Escorts) tell me that their engine rules are mega-strict, down to the level of conrod specifications, valve sizes etc. Is F2 as strict, or is there a degree of latitude?

[james c]

Originally Posted by chris bailey

I don't think the engine builders are "up to" anything. All I'm sure about is that more horsepower will help offset my self-confessed talent deficit. So obviously I would choose a BDG over a period-spec BDA. Just wouldn't want to become embroiled in controversy down the line. These engines cost a small fortune (by my standards at least) so the initial decision is crucial. Chassis and bodywork, on the other hand, are much easier to understand and "adjust". An engine to me is something I bolt in the back and use. I don't pretend to understand the details. However, people I know in the world of Historic Rallying (Mk 1 Escorts) tell me that their engine rules are mega-strict, down to the level of conrod specifications, valve sizes etc. Is F2 as strict, or is there a degree of latitude?

The regs are on the HSCC website, no homologation papers like the Escort. As far as I'm aware if it's not period it's not allowed, I think a March 782 with BDG was propsed last year and understand it wasn't accepted on authenticity grounds.
There seems to plenty of interest in F2 at the moment, the series would appear to be pretty healthy, I'm sure your March would be most welcome!

[Dan Rear]

James, my old mate Kim Mather ran a 'bitza 782' in period with BDG. He did AFX in late 79 with it, plus the August Donny Euro F2 race. It was a mix of his 772P with bits of 783 also built in.

[james c]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

James, my old mate Kim Mather ran a 'bitza 782' in period with BDG. He did AFX in late 79 with it, plus the August Donny Euro F2 race. It was a mix of his 772P with bits of 783 also built in.

Historic F2 is pre '79 Dan, don't think the owner could find any evidence of one with BDG in before then. Isn't there an ex Kim Mather Chevron B35? out there at the moment?

[Ted Walker]

I think the critcal point is WHEN did the ALLOY BLOCK BDG First appear in F2 ???? and in what chassis were they fitted in PRE 79. ?????

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

I think the critcal point is WHEN did the ALLOY BLOCK BDG First appear in F2 ???? and in what chassis were they fitted in PRE 79. ?????

Did Graham Eden's Ralt RT1, a 1977 car, not have an alloy block BDG when driven in the British series of 77 and 78 by Tony Rouff and Mike Wilds?

[Dan Rear]

It did Chris have a BDG, no idea what it was made out of... I don't think that car ever did a 'real' F2 race though did it? Does G8/AFX count for HSCC purposes?

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

I think the critcal point is WHEN did the ALLOY BLOCK BDG First appear in F2 ???? and in what chassis were they fitted in PRE 79. ?????

The first time one appeared was actually at the Brazilian Torneio at the end of 1972. Both Hart and RES had 1990cc alloy engines present and Pace won a race with the Hart unit. However, its homologation had been turned down by the FIA only a few weeks earlier so I don't quite understand how it was suddenly legal.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

It did Chris have a BDG, no idea what it was made out of... I don't think that car ever did a 'real' F2 race though did it? Does G8/AFX count for HSCC purposes?

It was entered for Donington 1977 (race #29), that's good enough for me, I'm screwing one into the back of an RT1 this evening!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

The first time one appeared was actually at the Brazilian Torneio at the end of 1972. Both Hart and RES had 1990cc alloy engines present and Pace won a race with the Hart unit. However, its homologation had been turned down by the FIA only a few weeks earlier so I don't quite understand how it was suddenly legal.

I have just noticed that you asked about alloy block BDGs and I answered about alloy block BDAs. Sorry.