HTPs now last 5 years - official

[DaveGT6]

There was a previous thread (referring to helmets and suits) that strayed into the FIA proposal to life the HTP.

Well it seems that we now have some details. Annouced today the changes to FIA and MSA charges for HTP.

All HTPs are now lifed at 5 years for Jan 1st. or from date of issue whichever is the later.

MSA application fee £295.00 and FIA fee £300.00. Inspection fee £175.00

That is the current rate. What will it be in 5 years time when we have to renew? Is this what we want? At first I thought that a re-newal process might reduce the amount of bending of rules but looking at the cost implications perhaps it is just playing to those who can afford to build bent cars in the first place?

[Brian A]

I think that the CSCC approach to this imposition may set a trend. They are changing the requirements for the Classic K series from requiring HTP papers to requiring cars to conform to Appendix K, thus saving entrants the need to renew papers - just keep the cars to the correct spec which will be policed just as strictly.

So everyone can be happy, except the accountants at the FIA.....

[DaveGT6]

Yes a neat solution and a pragmatic response from the CSCC. If others follow suit would this lead to the re-issue of HTPs becoming an irrelevance? My worry is that it may lead to some series/events becoming more elitist (no pun intended Brian) than they currently are.

[terence]

Just as Jeremy told us Dave. He also suggested asking exactly what the FIA do for us after shafting us for the FIA paper replacement. Shame a club has so much clout!!

[Mike Bell]

Am going to have to seriously think about any more HTPs! As it is if owner has to pay the whole amount again every 5 years that is £154 per car per year need to add to running costs. With 4 HTPs at moment that is £616 per year before they turn a wheel.......

[Peter Mallett]

Will it drive a lot of owners out of racing?

[Jeremy Hall]

It may do several things.
It may mean that organisers want HTP but are not insistent that they are in date-provided that the car complies with its HTP. After all it is the technical specification that couints.
It may mean that some countries start doing their own National HTP the same as MSA do for Histroic Rally papers at present- there strong rumours of at least three ASN considering that right now.
So unless you are running in an FIA championship, at Monaco and maybe classic Le Mans there may be alternatives.
It may mean that ASN offer the applicants for HTP the FIA option-if you need papers but do not need them for an FIA International event for two years it may be the ASN issues the papers prior to them going to FIA to give a longer life.

[terence]

I think you're right Jeremy, whilst it is possible for organizers to ask for HTPs to be presented,seem's that rather a lot of them do not insist on seeing them,[as at Spa 6hr]

I think the FIA have just started to loose quite a fair bit of revenue!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I think you're right Jeremy, whilst it is possible for organizers to ask for HTPs to be presented,seem's that rather a lot of them do not insist on seeing them,[as at Spa 6hr]

I think the FIA have just started to loose quite a fair bit of revenue!

Terry you miss the point.To date FIA have had no revenue from HTP.The ASN pay no money to FIA to get the FIA numbers on the forms. Running the secretarial side, meetings etc is said to be costing the FIA 100,000 Euros a year.The first instance is that FIA are trying to get some income to support the expense.The further income is to pay for the ''Knowlege Centre''.

[zefarelly]

Reading all of this, I'd question the relevance of the MAS/ASN in the process

[jellison]

This make me feel great about not doing FIA stuff.

Hate to have to build a car to a specific spec - eek - just as much fun tweeking them as racing (well almost).

Can we have less FIA threads on this Section, this is only a small area of the Historic (OLD) car race scene!

[zefarelly]

yes and No Jellison

plastic double glazing will never be right in an old house

[jellison]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

yes and No Jellison

plastic double glazing will never be right in an old house

I agree. My point being mods from the 70's miss the cut off of all the fia twaddle (i.e. the clock stopped at the end of 65!). Alot of the stuff done to none fia but still period (in mine and alot of other books) is that mods done to pre 66 cars Could have been done, but they just aren't in the fia papers.

+ There alot of mods done in say the 70's done to pre 66 cars that would now been seen as "old / period" but might not have been pre-66. i.e. Alloy heads for certain cars, just as one example.

Also the fia have no real idea what was going on under the skin of alot of the cars that were actually racing in these event pre-66. Just as much "Rule bending then as NOW". I just like having a more open set of rules to allow the competitor to have some creative thinking in certain areas (these thing may or "may not" make the car go faster) but are fun to do....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by jellison

Can we have less FIA threads on this Section, this is only a small area of the Historic (OLD) car race scene!

Can't have less, but you could start an alternative.

[jellison]

Good point. Roll on the start of the season

[DaveGT6]

Jellison,

You're absolutely right rule bending has always been happening and the HTPs don't necesarilly allow you to do what was actually done in period. Having built and raced old cars in non-HTP controlled championships and series I too enjoy the modifying/tweeking part of it but I also enjoy building within a set of constraining rules - that's what all the current (at whatever period in time) major championships have to do. What gets my goat is that we have to pay all this money to a governing body that then does not effectively police its own regulations - what's the point?

I've only had an FIA car for one season and already I'm seriously questioning why I bothered. OK lots of great events are opened up but the entry fees are interesting! and I then have to compete against a bunch of cars that I cannot believe are compliant with their HTPs. SO remind me what the fees are for?

Yours
Sadly disillusioned of Tunbridge

[zefarelly]

I think that sums it up for a lot of us

[terence]

Probably only one person on here who can answer that Dave,doubtful that anyone knows !!

[jellison]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

Jellison,

You're absolutely right rule bending has always been happening and the HTPs don't necesarilly allow you to do what was actually done in period. Having built and raced old cars in non-HTP controlled championships and series I too enjoy the modifying/tweeking part of it but I also enjoy building within a set of constraining rules - that's what all the current (at whatever period in time) major championships have to do. What gets my goat is that we have to pay all this money to a governing body that then does not effectively police its own regulations - what's the point?

I've only had an FIA car for one season and already I'm seriously questioning why I bothered. OK lots of great events are opened up but the entry fees are interesting! and I then have to compete against a bunch of cars that I cannot believe are compliant with their HTPs. SO remind me what the fees are for?

Yours
Sadly disillusioned of Tunbridge

Some great points there Dave.

I am in full agreedment. I'd be questioning it too. Sound like they are basically (at the end of the day) just interested in pulling in as much cash as they can (before the rules are changed again (and again)).

You have a cracking car there so why not get a set of Yokos and come out in some more (less interesting and less traipsing (not spelt right) all over europe just to get to a nice track).

Personally I could never get the time to do that and you'd be fore ever up against people that have the money to get away with bending the rules.

Your car on yokos could do at least 3 series I can think of in the Uk and then just do the Euro ones that really get you excited.

I hate being constrained, love seeing how fast these old car s can be made to go with the mods that "could" have been done in period combined with the odd ones that would have been later (brakes, tyres).

Jelly

[molestrangler]

Why should the MSA or the FIA be entitled to mug us for large fees. Surely the MSA gets plenty from our license charges to run itself. The FIA should only be allowed to enforce it`s will on people competing in FIA championships at FIA meetings. Why not make exact copies of HTP`s with our own club or association as the letterhead and
arrange with organisers to use these. If we don`t do something soon we`ll not be able to afford any more racing.

[zefarelly]

some organisers ask entrant to sign a declaration

of course there's always good old honesty/decency and fair play

[Ted Walker]

Very good point "molestrangler" (what an excellent name) We in the HSCC have our own forms and when travelling abroad to one of our own races we have no problems. I think the idea of a SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) Logbook, where the book is signed by the scrutineer at each race and comments made about any problems is a better idea.

[Peter Mallett]

I believe the CSCC hasimplemented its own form of HTP for its App K series.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I believe the CSCC has implemented its own form of HTP for its App K series.

Correct.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Very good point "molestrangler" (what an excellent name) We in the HSCC have our own forms and when travelling abroad to one of our own races we have no problems. I think the idea of a SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) Logbook, where the book is signed by the scrutineer at each race and comments made about any problems is a better idea.

Whats in a name more the point Ted... Bin known to strangle much larger pests than moles.....