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Old 25 Sep 2020, 19:07 (Ref:4006251)   #26
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Anyopenroad and ascarracinguk pretty much nail this thread.
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Old 25 Sep 2020, 19:13 (Ref:4006252)   #27
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Anyopenroad and ascarracinguk pretty much nail this thread.
I agree too, except for the lost friendship bit.
I think both deserve equal credit for that.
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Old 25 Sep 2020, 20:41 (Ref:4006268)   #28
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Hamilton is better than Rosberg, but Rosberg was pretty damn close. In an age of ultra consistency this means over a long year it is unlikely Rosberg would beat Hamilton. However, in one year, it fell towards Rosberg. Well done sir.

In the years one of them won the championship it was 2-1 to Hamilton. I’m happy that is fair considering how close they were.

As for the team favoring Hamilton. All of the stuff above is more likely to come about when a driver is just stronger! Which Hamilton is against most!

Occam’s razor.
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 02:34 (Ref:4006305)   #29
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There were plenty of times that season, such as Spa, where Lewis too had to start at the back due to unreliability reasons yet dragged himself back to a finish he shouldn't have had due to his performace.
This is the problem in reference to Rosberg. Hamilton started at the back because he and MB tanked the regs regarding replacement parts. This was to have fresh/er equipment for the rest of the season.

Spa beforehand was seen as less detrimental to take advantage of those rules (A loophole subsequently closed).

That I suspect is so galling for Hamilton fans and ironic for neutrals. A blown engine with a clear lead. It wasn't a worn engine that blew up, but was a fresh engine that wasn't being pushed.

I can give you stats that demonstrate Rosberg was better than Hamilton that year, Hamilton didn't perform to his 2014 & 15 seasons, and Rosberg lifted. Objective stats that have nothing to do with reliability. Are you interested?

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On balance, Lewis had the worse reliability that season, culminating in Malaysia where the title ended up put out of Lewis' reach by the engine failure.
This is incorrect.

Rosberg led by 23pts after Malaysia (288-265) with 5 races to go. When Rosberg won the following race in Japan, that extended the lead to 33 (313-280). That's when the balance of power swung to Rosberg. Four 2nd places for the rest of the year meant he won the championship, and he drove accordingly (To my disbelief)

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But even as a Lewis fan, there's no point to decrying Nico's achievements
With respect, there's nothing in you post that says don't decry his achievement.


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If you try to pain Nico as an average driver, then why didn't Lewis muller him like he is Bottas atm?
2 reasons (IMO)

1) Rosberg is of sufficient talent that even if you're inherently better than him, you can't be complacent in your own performance.

2) There's something that Rosberg has but Bottas doesn't, and it's more important than inherent talent. That is "clout" within the team.

Rosberg had clout due to being at MB from the start. Bottas has none. Clout is a bigger deal because it set up how the team operates.

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No, Nico was an underrated talent, with the only real black mark with his ruthlessness (putting his engine into an mode the drivers and team agreed they wouldn't do in the race for reliability reasons to challenge lewis was the start of a snowball effect that culminated in Nico's retirement it seems. But Monaco Qualifying was perhaps his worst moment, when he wasn't clumsily clunking into Lewis due to his misunderstanding of wheel to wheel racing anyway)
Nico sacrificed everything to be world champion. His friendship with Lewis was the first thing he found easy to cast aside, it seems

Ever since he left the sport, he's seemed like he's tried to rekindle that friendship, but it seems that's a door that will remain closed, at least while Lewis is still racing

As good as a driver he was though, I could do without him trying to become the face of the sport with some weak-level punditry, Boring Vlogs, sponsorship campaigns and an objectionably terrible podcast recorded on his Iphone so the sound is terrible.

Good driver, but was his career just his method of raising his profile for his other business concerns? The more he keeps showing up, the more that seems to be the case.
There's a narrative in this that doesn't come across well. BUt not worht carrying on with.
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 07:38 (Ref:4006322)   #30
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A key in how hard Rosberg pushed Hamilton is seen by how many times Nico finished second when Lewis won.

2014: 11/8
2015: 10/7
2016: 10/5
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 07:59 (Ref:4006325)   #31
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A key in how hard Rosberg pushed Hamilton is seen by how many times Nico finished second when Lewis won.

2014: 11/8
2015: 10/7
2016: 10/5
What does that tell us? Particularly the 10/5 in 2016 when NR took the title?

When you look at the comparison for VB
2017: 9/4
2018: 11/2
2019: 11/6

Does that mean VB hasn't pushed Hamilton as hard? Or does it mean that the Merc has not been as far ahead of the field with VB in the car, so there has been more a contest with other teams?

I think there are too many other variables involved for simply looking at statistics for Merc's other driver finishing second to LH to actually mean anything.
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 09:26 (Ref:4006336)   #32
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I'm just puzzling what all this has to do with the subject of the thread.....
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 09:54 (Ref:4006342)   #33
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I'm just puzzling what all this has to do with the subject of the thread.....
I think it's in relation to how Hamilton responds to a team-mate who is/isn't a challenge, and establishing how much of a challenge his previous team-mates were.

In the context of this thread - would a challenge from Max as a team-mate at RBR be something LH would welcome, or want to avoid?
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 10:37 (Ref:4006346)   #34
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What does that tell us? Particularly the 10/5 in 2016 when NR took the title?

When you look at the comparison for VB
2017: 9/4
2018: 11/2
2019: 11/6

Does that mean VB hasn't pushed Hamilton as hard? Or does it mean that the Merc has not been as far ahead of the field with VB in the car, so there has been more a contest with other teams?

I think there are too many other variables involved for simply looking at statistics for Merc's other driver finishing second to LH to actually mean anything.

Or maybe you need to stop trying to read too much into things. If you think Bottas has done as well as Rosberg in terms of Hamilton, well I have yet to see enough to convince me, good as Valterri. You can’t paint things up, when not just stats, but performance also shows it too
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 10:42 (Ref:4006348)   #35
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I am not sure Verstappen will win a WDC at at all, he has the talent but I can see it is possible that the younger drivers coming through may move the goal posts so to speak and MB's long domination has certainly prevented him from being a WDC already. In ordinary circumstances he could just have been a WDC already but MB have effectively blocked his way so far.

If MB continue their winning ways which is more likely than not how many years do you think Verstappen has to wait his chance? He has just about gauranteed that a move to MB is out of the question because his contract is out of phase with everyone else's. RB do not look like they are going to return to the podium within the next decade and all in all I would not put a bet on his WDC chances at all. Time will tell of course but brilliant drivers before him have not won either.

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Jordan talks as if Hamilton has something to prove. Verstappen is the one with something to prove. And yet he keeps signing long term contracts with Red Bull, instead of trying to get a seat in the best car on the grid. But that is another matter altogether. Eventually I'm sure he will win the WDC - and maybe several - whether that is with RBR or some other team. But while he is the hottest or 2nd hottest property in F1, perhaps his management should be trying to get him into a car that will deliver a WDC.
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 11:13 (Ref:4006350)   #36
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Or maybe you need to stop trying to read too much into things. If you think Bottas has done as well as Rosberg in terms of Hamilton, well I have yet to see enough to convince me, good as Valterri. You can’t paint things up, when not just stats, but performance also shows it too
I did not state that I think Bottas has done as well as Rosberg.
I was trying to establish what you meant by saying that the statistics of Rosberg being second to a Hamilton win being 'key'?

Please don't take any query for clarification as a criticism - sometimes it might just be that people are trying to get a better understanding of the point you are trying to make.....
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 11:13 (Ref:4006351)   #37
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I am not sure Verstappen will win a WDC at at all, he has the talent but I can see it is possible that the younger drivers coming through may move the goal posts so to speak and MB's long domination has certainly prevented him from being a WDC already. In ordinary circumstances he could just have been a WDC already but MB have effectively blocked his way so far.
...

Time will tell of course but brilliant drivers before him have not won either.
This, exactly.

Max is surely talented and determined enough, that is not the problem.

He may end up as a multi-time champion but he may as well end his carreer without a title at all.
Nobody can tell.

Eveything has to be in order at exactly the right, there is too many circumstances out of his control.

Same is true of course for Leclerc (and other upcoming talents).

Just imagine Ferrari gets its acts together in the next few years. We may see a Ferrari-Leclerc dominance.
Or if Mercedes keeps doing what it is doing, then maybe Lewis' eventual successor (Russell? or someone else) will pick up where Lewis left.
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 11:18 (Ref:4006353)   #38
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I'm just puzzling what all this has to do with the subject of the thread.....
Which is Eddie Jordan right?
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 12:32 (Ref:4006368)   #39
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Which is Eddie Jordan right?
No idea. I've completely forgotten (both him and the purpose of the thread.....).
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 12:44 (Ref:4006376)   #40
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 14:48 (Ref:4006407)   #41
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Good catch!
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 14:56 (Ref:4006410)   #42
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Yeah good call..... Reported.
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Old 26 Sep 2020, 15:42 (Ref:4006421)   #43
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Total non-story. Just like the one about Hamilton joining Ferrari.....
Ah but then again....... Webber to Renault.
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 00:21 (Ref:4006584)   #44
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Verstappen will be in F1 til he's 45, and will have his period to cash in on success. Similar to how it's evolved for other wunderkinds like Vettel and Hamilton.


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I'm just puzzling what all this has to do with the subject of the thread.....
It's all to point out how team/driver dynamics plays out. For my contribution to it, I kind of don't like how old rusted on notions are expressed when I think they're incorrect (Or even objectively incorrect).

The thing about a Verstappen/Hamilton team up, is who would the development of the car sway towards? At MB it's Hamilton, and at RB it's Verstappen. So idk what'd happen at a neutral team.
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 00:38 (Ref:4006591)   #45
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Ah but then again....... Webber to Renault.
That is such old news. It’s Webber to Alpine.
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 00:56 (Ref:4006592)   #46
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I am glad you can be so positive about the future, how much do you charge Verstappen to read his? No one can say what will happen but drivers such as Chris Amon one of the most talented drivers to never win a WDC would agree that nothing is gauranteed in this life.

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Verstappen will be in F1 til he's 45, and will have his period to cash in on success. Similar to how it's evolved for other wunderkinds like Vettel and Hamilton.
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 08:12 (Ref:4006644)   #47
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The thing about a Verstappen/Hamilton team up, is who would the development of the car sway towards? At MB it's Hamilton, and at RB it's Verstappen. So idk what'd happen at a neutral team.
That team would have a many times world champion and a young pretender. Go figure.....
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 10:35 (Ref:4006686)   #48
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I am glad you can be so positive about the future, how much do you charge Verstappen to read his? No one can say what will happen but drivers such as Chris Amon one of the most talented drivers to never win a WDC would agree that nothing is gauranteed in this life.
Chris Amon seem to be an outlier. Team nowadays are much bigger, have more knowledge and information about their car

Otherwise something will occur in the coming decades and Verstappen will get a lengthy spell in the sunshine to cash in on wins. How it occurs, I don't know.

In the time I'd been following F1. Rule changes that take away everything that made the Williams good, and Schumacher wins with Benetton.

Extreme changes occur for 98. And Mika Hakkinen gets his opportunity to cash in. (Who had similar potential as Schumacher from 1990, but was at the opposite ends of the success spectrum til 98).

Big changes occur for 05, and Alonso/Renault override the Schumacher/Ferrari dominance.

Further big changes for 09, and Button cashes in.

Quite extreme rule changes occur for 14, and Hamilton/MB reap like never before in F1 history (Now over hauling Schumacher/Ferrari's accumulated success). Hamilton was a substantial driver in 13, but did not accumulate the success expected from his first two years in F1. He's subsequently fulfilled on that with the insurmountable advantage MB were handed.

Verstappen is of similar presence to Hamilton, and a time will come for him to fill his boots.
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 10:42 (Ref:4006692)   #49
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That team would have a many times world champion and a young pretender. Go figure.....
If you're meaning Verstappen as a young pretender, then I think that's incorrect. RB are fully aligned with Verstappen, and Hamilton joining that team would be worse than Alonso joining Mclaren in 07.

I'm not sure what a neutral team would do? It's not clear cut, and Hamilton being a WC won't be relevant.
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Old 27 Sep 2020, 11:15 (Ref:4006713)   #50
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Mention of Amon and how him missing out wouldn’t happen today. Well Fred in recent seasons never exactly made the right choice of cars, much like Amon. Difference is Alonso is at least had those two titles with Renault
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