The end for holden???

[bluesport]

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshom...-for-collapse/

[FAS33]

didnt people also think the end of holden/Ford was back in 1960's ,70's era ?

[TSR]

There was a piece on facebook last week I read that Holden Motorsport is closing its doors at the end of the year.

[JHamilton]

Considering they will land 25% of the police car market and however many 'SS' (at least 40-50k me thinks) in the US, they will be just fine.

[GTRMagic]

Its strange to read some of the comments there from people who should have a better idea

Does anyone really think it is financially viable to retool to a fully automated production line like the newer ones around the world to make less than a thousand cars a month?

Does anyone really think that if someone managed to convince the parent company to throw a few lazy billion on the retooling project, that there wouldnt be swift and significant job losses?

Does anyone really think the concept of risk balanced strategic sourcing of inputs might be a good idea?

There are many failures here... and a group of people inside the current government & beyond that seem to think throwing money at the issue will keep jobs going... indefinitely...

The true answer is eminently logical.

Force all government departments, by compulsory policy, their employees & their contractors to purchase only Australian made cars. Back in the '60's and '70s, a number of lobbyists would present to the various powers that be in Canberra about their woes... and while no direct government money was forthcoming, they usually came home with a shiny new fleet order for a large number of cars

Dont buy Subarus or Hyundais or Toyota Corollas... keep the money in the industry they are hell bent on assisting by keeping the doors of the factories open by buying Holden Commodore, Holden Cruze, Ford Falcon, Ford Territory, Toyota Aurion, Toyota Camry.

Gradually improve the expectation of these vehicles, share the buying around between the new 'big 3' and lead by example... instead of using their usual 'do as I say, not do as I do' policies...

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Considering they will land 25% of the police car market and however many 'SS' (at least 40-50k me thinks) in the US, they will be just fine.

They have to able to get the parts to make the cars first.......the parts suppliers in Australia are closing their doors because they are unviable.

[Umai Naa]

It doesn't help that a fair chunk of the the Holden offerings are a good 5 years behind in both quality and technology, yet are still priced towards the upper end of their market segments in most cases.

[NinnyMan]

Originally Posted by bluesport

They have to able to get the parts to make the cars first.......the parts suppliers in Australia are closing their doors because they are unviable.

And that's what I don't get.

When ever a parts supplier goes belly up, Holden, Ford and Toyota say they will have to shut down production for a while.
If the car makers rely on these part suppliers to make their cars, then how on earth are these suppliers going out of business???
Don't the car manufacturers pay them or something??

Until Holden or Ford come out and say "we are closing shop" I tend not to listen to what these so-called experts and scribes have to say.

[xrystl]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Force all government departments, by compulsory policy, their employees & their contractors to purchase only Australian made cars. Back in the '60's and '70s, a number of lobbyists would present to the various powers that be in Canberra about their woes... and while no direct government money was forthcoming, they usually came home with a shiny new fleet order for a large number of cars

Dont buy Subarus or Hyundais or Toyota Corollas... keep the money in the industry they are hell bent on assisting by keeping the doors of the factories open by buying Holden Commodore, Holden Cruze, Ford Falcon, Ford Territory, Toyota Aurion, Toyota Camry.

Gradually improve the expectation of these vehicles, share the buying around between the new 'big 3' and lead by example... instead of using their usual 'do as I say, not do as I do' policies...

Problem with the Government fleet purchases is the Dealers and the Manufacturer make bugger all out of it , sure they will sell more cars but make no more $$$$ than if they didn't have all the fleet market , so in the end the profit per vehicle falls dramatically and then it becomes another round of Government handouts to keep the Auto industry going for a few more years , and if the Government do buy expensive Australian cars they get shot down for wasting $$$ when something better and cheaper is available.
The last that I read about the Holden Police vehicles in the US is that Holden are making no $$ from the deal because of the high Ozzie $$ and the price point they have to meet to sell them in the US -- I would like to see a company take that proposition to a bank to finance the deal

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by NinnyMan

And that's what I don't get.

When ever a parts supplier goes belly up, Holden, Ford and Toyota say they will have to shut down production for a while.
If the car makers rely on these part suppliers to make their cars, then how on earth are these suppliers going out of business???
Don't the car manufacturers pay them or something??

Until Holden or Ford come out and say "we are closing shop" I tend not to listen to what these so-called experts and scribes have to say.

Its reasonably simple... playing the game of sourcing sometimes means you take advantage of a subcontractor where they are not absolutely across their cost to make product, where they havent factored the cost of replacing equipment, tooling, rent changes... all kinds of things that move as the days go past...

Unless there is a decent ratchet clause in the deals that they strike, the cost increases are borne by the supplier, not the customer.

And lets not forget these supplier guys are under pressure from the threat of cheaper imported products all the time. So sometimes make a decision to take a knock on margin to keep the door open, with the dream that prices shall go up in the good times.

Hah!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by xrystl

Problem with the Government fleet purchases is the Dealers and the Manufacturer make bugger all out of it , sure they will sell more cars but make no more $$$$ than if they didn't have all the fleet market , so in the end the profit per vehicle falls dramatically and then it becomes another round of Government handouts to keep the Auto industry going for a few more years , and if the Government do buy expensive Australian cars they get shot down for wasting $$$ when something better and cheaper is available.

Dealers lose money at their gross margin, but are usually paid a factory rebate by the car maker/importer that more than makes up for the loss.

The argument for a carmaker becomes a spiral, do you fund fleet deal rebates and keep the factory busy, or do you choose not to do that (like Ford has done) and make far fewer cars... pushing the average cost per car to make up, as the new tooling doesnt really care if you make 1000 cars or 1100 cars, the depreciation cost is close enough to the same.

[xrystl]

Originally Posted by NinnyMan

And that's what I don't get.

When ever a parts supplier goes belly up, Holden, Ford and Toyota say they will have to shut down production for a while.
If the car makers rely on these part suppliers to make their cars, then how on earth are these suppliers going out of business???
Don't the car manufacturers pay them or something??

.

The suppliers have been screwed down to the smallest margin and a reduction because the Manufacturers sales slow down is what breaks the camels back , a reduction of output of even 5% is enough to send a small operator to the wall (I have seen this in the Boating industry in QLD) sad but it really is that cut throat

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by xrystl

The suppliers have been screwed down to the smallest margin and a reduction because the Manufacturers sales slow down is what breaks the camels back , a reduction of output of even 5% is enough to send a small operator to the wall (I have seen this in the Boating industry in QLD) sad but it really is that cut throat

And lets not forget that the carmakers almost always do not commit to purchasing a specific volume for a year, instead providing indicators

If they were solid in their purchase requirements, and linear or at least predictable in their uptake, the production could be better optimised to save money... to stop the rush when there isnt enough stock, and to stop the idle labour when sales arent as strong as anticipated

These issues are not exclusive to the automotive industry... go play with any business in the FMCG space who makes private label product... and welcome to a serious world of pain!

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by NinnyMan

And that's what I don't get.

When ever a parts supplier goes belly up, Holden, Ford and Toyota say they will have to shut down production for a while.
If the car makers rely on these part suppliers to make their cars, then how on earth are these suppliers going out of business???
Don't the car manufacturers pay them or something??

Until Holden or Ford come out and say "we are closing shop" I tend not to listen to what these so-called experts and scribes have to say.

Apart from the high Aussie dollar ($1.04 US and heading north again), Australian manufacturers have a lot of overheads (superannuation, insurance etc) and the cost of labour is expensive...........governments can't have it both ways, they want everyone to pay for themselves while imposing costs that prohibit people and business from achieving that, they spend too much money on pressure groups, people that don't work, have never worked and will never work to buy their votes.

[Umai Naa]

So what are the possible solutions?

Personally, I'd eliminate the inferior brands (Mahindra, Great Wall, Chery, and soo to be more) to start with. We're well aware of their performance, or lack thereof, in the crash lab. That's a good enough excuse for me to put the red pen through their ability to be complied. Get it up to a 5-Star ANCAP rating, or sod off.

Another, could be (the Australian Government) offering incentives to buyers, not so much of cars, but pretty much anything, who buy Australian-made products, purchased in Australia. Buying from the likes of Ford, Holden, and Toyota could be a bit of a grey area, perhaps limited to the Camry, Commodore, Aurion, Falcon, and Territory. Whether it could be extended to the CKD (aka, flatpack) 5-door Cruze, I don't know.

Just throwing ideas around...

[Downoz]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

So what are the possible solutions?

Personally, I'd eliminate the inferior brands (Mahindra, Great Wall, Chery, and soo to be more) to start with. We're well aware of their performance, or lack thereof, in the crash lab. That's a good enough excuse for me to put the red pen through their ability to be complied. Get it up to a 5-Star ANCAP rating, or sod off.

Another, could be (the Australian Government) offering incentives to buyers, not so much of cars, but pretty much anything, who buy Australian-made products, purchased in Australia. Buying from the likes of Ford, Holden, and Toyota could be a bit of a grey area, perhaps limited to the Camry, Commodore, Aurion, Falcon, and Territory. Whether it could be extended to the CKD (aka, flatpack) 5-door Cruze, I don't know.

Just throwing ideas around...

Sounds good mate, but if you look at things this so called Government cant stop illegals in boats coming here so how in the world are they going to stop importing the cheaper vehicles, and that is where it comes back to, cheaper.
Australian workers are pricing themselves out of world trade and we all want an extra 50 or 100 dollars a week, but at the expense of someone who will loose their job because it is now cheaper to get the product from O seas than local. I dont know what the end result will be, but it certainly appears that the lucky country, may be heading for some unlucky times. Just my thoughts./

[Nicholosophy]

I would like to see Holden and other Australian car makers continue on, but if it isn't possible then so be it.

Australian workers aren't going to take massive pay cuts to help the manuacturing industry remain competitive, and I can understand why. So it's difficult for Australia to remain competitive with countries with cheaper labour.

The only 'Australian' marque is just a brand owned by the USians anyway.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

I would like to see Holden and other Australian car makers continue on, but if it isn't possible then so be it.

Australian workers aren't going to take massive pay cuts to help the manuacturing industry remain competitive, and I can understand why. So it's difficult for Australia to remain competitive with countries with cheaper labour.

The only 'Australian' marque is just a brand owned by the USians anyway.

They will take more than a massive pay cut when there is no industry and no jobs. Sooner or later Australians, and I include the government in this, will wake up to "you can't have your cake and eat it too".
Then and only then will we see some protection for Australian industry from the overseas sweatshops.

[xrystl]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

So

Another, could be (the Australian Government) offering incentives to buyers, not so much of cars, but pretty much anything, who buy Australian-made products, purchased in Australia. Buying from the likes of Ford, Holden, and Toyota could be a bit of a grey area, perhaps limited to the Camry, Commodore, Aurion, Falcon, and Territory. Whether it could be extended to the CKD (aka, flatpack) 5-door Cruze, I don't know.

Just throwing ideas around...

I'm in my sixties and in the 1950s and 60s buying Australian made was simple because just about everything was Australian made , In WA for instance there was the advertising jingle to "Buy WA made goods" and stop sending your money to the Eastern states .
Those days we had protection for our industries which kept out foreign players so we had little choice in what we could buy , we also had the "White Australia Policy" which kept the Asian and other populations in their own countries - we also had bland cars bland food and very little choice when we shopped for electrical or other goods .
For me I like it the way it is now , we just have such a great choice of everything the consumer could ask for , the difference is really dramatic.
Australian Industry now has to play on the word stage and it's pretty tough and will get tougher .

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by sizzle

They will take more than a massive pay cut when there is no industry and no jobs. Sooner or later Australians, and I include the government in this, will wake up to "you can't have your cake and eat it too".
Then and only then will we see some protection for Australian industry from the overseas sweatshops.

Not going to happen. The same Australian workers who will be out of jobs will be at the shops buying the cheap imports. Tarrifs make no sense when you can jump online and get stuff shipped to you cheaper than you can buy it in the shops.

What needs to happen is that Australia needs to get smarter and start working in industries where we can lead the way. This way Australian workers can keep their pay rates and be under less threat of losing their jobs.

[bluesport]

The only answer is to peg the A$ at US.80c or less.........but then watch the petrol go to $2.00/litre.

[porsche91722]

Spare a thought for all of the people involved in our farming industries seeing all these handouts to prop up Auto manufacturing, when they continually get shafted by State and Federal governments in every aspect of the way they operate. Most of our farmers are at the forefront of world best operating standards, and have learned how to run their business effectively to compete with the rest of the world. Can the same be said of the Auto industry?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Spare a thought for all of the people involved in our farming industries seeing all these handouts to prop up Auto manufacturing, when they continually get shafted by State and Federal governments in every aspect of the way they operate. Most of our farmers are at the forefront of world best operating standards, and have learned how to run their business effectively to compete with the rest of the world. Can the same be said of the Auto industry?

That's the government again.

Everybody sing:

And farmers right throughout the land
Won't have water but they'll have broadband.

[billybanana]

I've been buying brand new Holdens all my life. But my latest purchase has seen me switch to Kia. Brand loyalty and the need to support local manufacturing can only take you so far. A direct comparison between equipment levels on the similar Holden v Kia model is not even a contest. The Kia wins by a mile.

[Chris - Melb]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The true answer is eminently logical.

Force all government departments, by compulsory policy, their employees & their contractors to purchase only Australian made cars. ...

That makes sense to me. If they spread the love amongst the three manufacturers they might find they don't have prop up the industry quite as much and so should save taxpayers money in the long run.