Far Eastern GPs - yay or nay?

[Bononi]

I don't think GPs is a matter of a country situation and mostly of the time they are unaccurate... Brazil for example, is about São Paulo City, state and federal governments has nothing to do with it. Motorsport culture is huge and links to F1 history since the beginning. Interlagos is part of the world motorsport history.

And what means "good country" for you ?

Oh yes, just get rid of the bad view and the world is better.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Does F1 really want to go to a war zone? Because they'll officially be going to 2 active war zones in 2014, and that's before you factor in Bahrain and Mexico.

However, Brazil should stay, and the Chinese GP has produced some truly awesome GPs recently - better than most of the "classic" circuits. I don't mind Malaysia, both as a country and venue, but Singapore is the real jewel in the crown there. However, GPs just for the money (Middle East, most Asian venues) without any cultural reasons is a waste. China is growing a very credible motorsport culture, and due to cultures, if F1 wants to go worldwide to expanding economies, go to Argentina and South Africa. However corrupt South Africa is, Mexico's civil war and the Chechen situation are far worse. And I'm sure the police there will deal with the troublemakers, and do it severely enough that it won't happen again.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

What does really count ?

I've been reading through, tradition, government that has no money, south american illegal money, civil war in Mexico (i didn't know about that!), 3rd world class - they still use that expression ? - and a bunch of things that looks like a bad speech of someone dislocated in time.

We're living in a global world, the era of information, one thing can be shared almost instantly, something can be transported in a matter of hours if necessary. You don't have to be actually there to be there, as well you don't have to profit from something only if you sell it in a specific place and time. Times have changed. The "eastern world" is right into our lives, everywhere, the times of "exotic cultures" have passed. There are huge cities in Asia that goes beyond the concept of the "western big city" and they all want what everybody else wants. We are living the time of the "right now, everywhere".

I don't think tradition counts anymore. People pays money to have things like they have in the rest of world, because they can. If England has a GP and India wants one too, and they can pay to have one so they'll pay the double to have a better one, just because they want like others have. And that's all the problem, not only in F1, but with everything else.

That's a consumers society, a global one, and the planet won't handle that for long.

Indeed we are living in a global world and people do pay for products that others in the world have but motorsport and in particular F1 is not a product you buy off the shelf just because someone else has it and you think you should have it too. There's much more to it than that, as both Turkey and China have discovered and as other countries will discover, who don't have a motorsports heritage.

I think tradition does count, if both China and Turkey had a motorsports tradition, the Chinese GP wouldn't be haemorrhaging money and we might still have a Turkish GP.

[chillibowl]

tradition is a tricky one. not enough of it, like in India, and it becomes hard to convince people to fork over large sums of money to attend a race and too much of it, like in the US, means F1 exists in a very crowded market place and will always struggle to compete with cheaper more traditional events.

[Paradise City]

Eccelstone is just collecting cheques. He's not much interested in anything else.

All those races could be reasonably run even in the midst of disturbances. Eccelstone seems to calculate that as long as there are candidate countries queueing up with cheque in hand, he can whether any media storm that may arise.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Indeed we are living in a global world and people do pay for products that others in the world have but motorsport and in particular F1 is not a product you buy off the shelf just because someone else has it and you think you should have it too. There's much more to it than that, as both Turkey and China have discovered and as other countries will discover, who don't have a motorsports heritage.

I think tradition does count, if both China and Turkey had a motorsports tradition, the Chinese GP wouldn't be haemorrhaging money and we might still have a Turkish GP.

Personally, I do believe that tradition counts, and for that reason alone I'm a supporter of a GP in Argentina. Motorsport culture in Argentina is also huge and the links to F1 history is well known.

What I was saying is that Bernie & Co. are looking for new venues where they'll find no trouble to get their fees and laws against building expensive tracks and so on, and the local audience is not a problem because the big money won't come from this source.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Personally, I do believe that tradition counts, and for that reason alone I'm a supporter of a GP in Argentina. Motorsport culture in Argentina is also huge and the links to F1 history is well known.

What I was saying is that Bernie & Co. are looking for new venues where they'll find no trouble to get their fees and laws against building expensive tracks and so on, and the local audience is not a problem because the big money won't come from this source.

Argentina has a fantastic tradition and I'd love to see the return of the Argentine GP.

The problem with Bernie & Co. is their model will eventually become unsustainable and venues will drop off the calendar, like Turkey did because they weren't getting the track attendance and were losing money hand over fist. I can see India and South Korea going that way and after a while there will be only so many countries who can afford to host GPs.

In 2009 China seriously questioned the feasibility of continuing to host the GP because of the money they were losing and again in 2011 the GP organisers refused to pay the massive sanctioning fee. It was subsequently reduced and the GP extended to 2017, I think primarily because Ecclestone would have looked a bit of a chump if he lost the GP of the country that effectively is the world's manufacturer.

[Bononi]

Bernie is like a virus, you know...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Bernie is like a virus, you know...

That's a good analogy, infecting and slowly destroying the host and inevitably itself, unless someone finds a cure.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Bononi

What does really count ?

I've been reading through, tradition, government that has no money, south american illegal money, civil war in Mexico (i didn't know about that!), 3rd world class - they still use that expression ? - and a bunch of things that looks like a bad speech of someone dislocated in time.

We're living in a global world, the era of information, one thing can be shared almost instantly, something can be transported in a matter of hours if necessary. You don't have to be actually there to be there, as well you don't have to profit from something only if you sell it in a specific place and time. Times have changed. The "eastern world" is right into our lives, everywhere, the times of "exotic cultures" have passed. There are huge cities in Asia that goes beyond the concept of the "western big city" and they all want what everybody else wants. We are living the time of the "right now, everywhere".

I don't think tradition counts anymore. People pays money to have things like they have in the rest of world, because they can. If England has a GP and India wants one too, and they can pay to have one so they'll pay the double to have a better one, just because they want like others have. And that's all the problem, not only in F1, but with everything else.

That's a consumers society, a global one, and the planet won't handle that for long.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. I haven't read the book but I know of his concepts - Thomas L. Friedman's "The World is Flat". It relates very much to what you are saying.

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Okay guys, to sum up the some of the countries that are on the 2014 F1 calendar:

Australia - Awesome
Malaysia - Not too bad, but not a brilliant country, with no motorsport history
Bahrain - Corrupt, oil-rich nation run by a hated man in his own country
China - Corrupt communist state, although an up-and-coming world power, with a huge world influence
South Korea - Very good country, with only Japan at it's level in Asia, although it has to worry about about a hostile neighbour, with both currently at war
Spain - Awesome, picturesque, but run out of money
Monaco - The best country in the world at most things, if you consider it a country
USA - Awesome country
Canada - Likewise, despite lacking people and its harsh conditions, they seem to get around it
Austria - Good country in Eastern Europe, but currently in recession
Great Britain - Amazing country, also in recession, but starting to emerge
Germany - Considering it is basically keeping the Euro alive...
Hungary - Emerging from the shadow of Communism, or it would be if not for the recession...
Belgium - Amazing country, but has the most robberies of any country on Earth
Italy - Amazing country, but has corruption in it, and it is running low on money
Singapore - This should be in the leagues of Japan and South Korea, but its laws are ridiculous!
Russia - Starting to gain credibility, but that's mainly from gangster money, and Sochi is near to the state of Chechen...
Japan - Amazing country
Abu Dhabi - Oil-rich state with some corruption and laws that could be viewed as discriminatory
USA - See somewhere above
Mexico - Very corrupt and currently in a state of civil war with it's own drug barons
Brazil - Emerging power which suffers from corruption and very poor standards of living for some people, as well as high crime rates.

Well, what do you think? Should F1 be worldwide or should it visit safe and good countries?

I think that the list is pretty accurate. Although I would argue about Canada's "harsh conditions"... anywhere in Nunavut, the Northwest Territories, or the Yukon is practically uninhabited. If you want to know what "harsh conditions" feel like, come down here to Dallas and stand in a parking lot in August.

Also, I would argue that Brazil has living conditions at least equal to that of Mexico, China, and India (of course, that's not on the 2014 schedule), if not a little better.

I agree, Singapore's insane (you can't walk around in your own house nude, for God's sake) and the big cats of the UAE and Bahrain are pretty much in their own little insane world.

Just to pose a question - how did "tradition" start in the first place? I mean, human beings all came from one spot, and it just so happens that over the course of many thousands of years western cultures have developed a motorsport tradition. It could have just as easily been Asia. I mean, the geography is similar...

So to establish a tradition, it is just fate? And in that case, shouldn't we push having GPs in places far flung from the western core?

[Paradise City]

Mexico is alot like Brazil and Russia. There's tycoons there today that there wasn't there decades before. The spin off to that is Eccelstone has recovered his interest in Mexico.

Mexico is an unsettling place. There is affluent and calm areas reminiscent of Spain and there's other areas where people have woken up to public hangings of bloggers off city bridges by gangsters.

There's enough social peace to hold a race in any of those countries listed. Brazil has always been a cuthroat place in urban areas and in certain places poverty is catastrophic for a large number of people; they've held races there for years and they can hold a race in Mexico too. If the cash is there Bernie will do that deal.

[JacobP]

Singapore GP was a world class GP every time I watched it. It's definitely one of the better ones. On the other hand the only Indian GP so far made me fall asleep. Let's hope it gets better this year.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I just watched the highlights of the Korean GP and noticed a number of empty stands and that eventually this GP will disappear from the calendar like Turkey did, primarily because there is no interest in motosrport and I put this down to a cultural thing.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Despite the fact that the Korean/Turkish GPs were generally good, the interest in those countries is minimal.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Despite the fact that the Korean/Turkish GPs were generally good, the interest in those countries is minimal.

It's cultural.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I just watched the highlights of the Korean GP and noticed a number of empty stands and that eventually this GP will disappear from the calendar like Turkey did, primarily because there is no interest in motosrport and I put this down to a cultural thing.

And it will be a shame as both countries you mentioned have fantastic racing circuits !

[ss_collins]

Theres a lot of outmoded, old colonial attitudes on this thread. Europe is frankly yesterday's continent. Anyone who looks at economic data will see that the rising economies are south american asian and african.

Japan has a huge passion for racing, but they have only had racing for 50 years or so, perhaps not as much tradition as other nations but its growing. Thailand and Malaysia are also very keen on racing, Thailand also has some heritage there too (Prince Bira??).

This attitude of lets keep Europe for the Europeans and keep all these funny non europeans out is a bit worrying.

There are nations like Nigeria which has little motorsport but if F1 went there it would probably be the most enthusiastic fan base of the year, the LOVE F1, and have a very rapidly growing economy. The Caribbean is another place where motorsport is hugely popular, yet only has a few very small tracks.

And before anyone from the UK yells corruption - I suggest you pick up a newspaper or Private Eye and realise its real pot and kettle, the level of corruption in most nations is dwarfed by what goes on and how ingrained and widespread it is in the UK.

So rather than saying F1 should not go to these nations because they have no 'tradition', the sport has to start somewhere.

By the way like it or not the Eastern Bloc nations also have a rich history of motorsport, especially during the Soviet times. Rallying, circuit racing (Formula East) and even speed record attempts.

[TimRTC]

Interesting comment by Will Buxton in support of keeping the Korean GP:

http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com.../mock-and-awe/

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Theres a lot of outmoded, old colonial attitudes on this thread. Europe is frankly yesterday's continent. Anyone who looks at economic data will see that the rising economies are south american asian and african.

Japan has a huge passion for racing, but they have only had racing for 50 years or so, perhaps not as much tradition as other nations but its growing. Thailand and Malaysia are also very keen on racing, Thailand also has some heritage there too (Prince Bira??).

This attitude of lets keep Europe for the Europeans and keep all these funny non europeans out is a bit worrying.

There are nations like Nigeria which has little motorsport but if F1 went there it would probably be the most enthusiastic fan base of the year, the LOVE F1, and have a very rapidly growing economy. The Caribbean is another place where motorsport is hugely popular, yet only has a few very small tracks.

And before anyone from the UK yells corruption - I suggest you pick up a newspaper or Private Eye and realise its real pot and kettle, the level of corruption in most nations is dwarfed by what goes on and how ingrained and widespread it is in the UK.

So rather than saying F1 should not go to these nations because they have no 'tradition', the sport has to start somewhere.

By the way like it or not the Eastern Bloc nations also have a rich history of motorsport, especially during the Soviet times. Rallying, circuit racing (Formula East) and even speed record attempts.

Just because a country has a burgeoning economy it doesn't automatically follow it's best suited to hold a GP, one has to look at where the fan base is as well, otherwise you end up with a situation like China or Turkey and I expect India and South Korea will follow, where the race organisers lose money with the only one who really benefits being Bernie. This is not good for developing motorsport in those countries and is not good for motorsport in general.

When it comes to motorsport I'm not Eurocentric, I'd like to see it flourish wordlwide but there will be some countries where exposure to motorsport will make absolutely no difference as far as getting the sport off the ground and creating their own motorsports legacy.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

So rather than saying F1 should not go to these nations because they have no 'tradition', the sport has to start somewhere.

Whilst I agree with quite a lot of your post Sam I'm not sure about this part - the sport has to start somewhere? So you think motorsport in a country should start with F1? Surely they should start at a grass roots level and build a competitor and fan base within their country. Once there is the appetite for the sport then start looking at getting international events and facilities. I don't think you can realistically start a sustainable motorsport environment in a country by building an F1 circuit, hosting a race and then leave them to it.

[Paradise City]

You can't throw a Grand Prix on a country out of the blue and expect it to carry. Ex-empire or ex-colony. You need to have the interest first, developing a domestic scene, developing a domestic driver or/and developing a domestic industry (Honda with Japan) and then move onto grander things.

We also need to row in our necks a little bit here. F1 is great n' all but having a GP [or not] is not a mark of a civilisation. I'm quite happy here in Ireland without one and I'm quite happy to let Britain and other countries carry that particular burden.

[TimRTC]

It is a pity that the level of the sport is such at the moment (with only a small handful of the grid in with a shot at podiums let alone race wins and the cost of developing and running a car) that wildcard drives would simply not be worthwhile. Having a couple of local drivers on the grid at these events would certainly help to boost local publicity and was always good fun at motor bike races in the Far East.

However it can work the wrong way, Narain Karthikeyan was heavily promoted before the Indian Grand Prix, but when new fans had to be told that his best finishing position was probably going to be 23rd unless someone crashed out, it put a lot of people off.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Theres a lot of outmoded, old colonial attitudes on this thread. Europe is frankly yesterday's continent. Anyone who looks at economic data will see that the rising economies are south american asian and african.

Japan has a huge passion for racing, but they have only had racing for 50 years or so, perhaps not as much tradition as other nations but its growing. Thailand and Malaysia are also very keen on racing, Thailand also has some heritage there too (Prince Bira??).

This attitude of lets keep Europe for the Europeans and keep all these funny non europeans out is a bit worrying.

There are nations like Nigeria which has little motorsport but if F1 went there it would probably be the most enthusiastic fan base of the year, the LOVE F1, and have a very rapidly growing economy. The Caribbean is another place where motorsport is hugely popular, yet only has a few very small tracks.

And before anyone from the UK yells corruption - I suggest you pick up a newspaper or Private Eye and realise its real pot and kettle, the level of corruption in most nations is dwarfed by what goes on and how ingrained and widespread it is in the UK.

So rather than saying F1 should not go to these nations because they have no 'tradition', the sport has to start somewhere.

By the way like it or not the Eastern Bloc nations also have a rich history of motorsport, especially during the Soviet times. Rallying, circuit racing (Formula East) and even speed record attempts.

Whilst I agree interest (and money) in Europe is fading, the fact that Western Europe has some of the highest living standards, least corrupt, and the most socially mobile states on Earth suggests something. Most rising powers (such as China) have awful governments in charge, and people mostly focus on the positives (i.e. ridiculous industrial power and global sphere of influence) than the bad (i.e. GDP per capita of just over £3,000 per head).

If we're going to stick on the theme of rising powers, by 2030 we could have a Libyan, Iranian and Colombian GP very, very easily.

However, right now, if you go East of the Urals or South of the equator, unless you're in Japan, Australia or New Zealand, that country will not be a rival for any European or North American nation. And, with Canada, Denmark, Norway, Great Britain and the USA all just uncovering oil reserves in their territory, things aren't going to shift as fast as it seems.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Woo, International Development essay over. Btw, Nigeria is one of the worst countries on Earth. I'm taking that from a friend who came from Nigeria, so I'll believe him.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

... (i.e. GDP per capita of just over £3,000 per head).

more than motorsport tradition that is the main issue for me. while these countries may have economies growing at much faster rates then our own they are still woefully behind in terms of income equality. add the difficulty and costs of freely moving within those countries and its not surprising that they have difficulties in filling up venues.