a word of warning to wide-boys

[bella]

so, you just passed yor test, and you think you're being really clever by driving around at speeds that were invented for thrust ssc, do you?

let me tell you all a cautionary tale.

i know a young gentleman who i had grown up with, and is frankly, a bit of a wally. his dad has a runaround alpina 7 series rocketship with x billion horsepower that the 3 kids drive. or had, as the case may be.

one night, mr wally, as we shall call him, was driving home, about a month after passing his test, with his mate in the car, when all of a sudden, a car pulled out slightly to see from a drive at the side of the road. young wally was caught unawares, and swerved to avoid said obstacle, lost control at unknown speed, and hit a lamppost on the passenger side.

wally's friend had to be cut from the car by removing the roof, and although wally himself was ok, the car was a write off, and his friend is too. the kid's still in intensive care, nearly a week after it happened. i chanced upon the car today, and boy, was it a mess. young wally and his friend were very lucky boys.

the moral of the story? don't think you can drive just because you have a piece of paper that says you conform to government standards. you can't. it takes years of experience that wally didn't have. and it doesn't matter what car you're in. it's still a write off, and it still has the potential to kill.

remember, you're driving a loaded gun, with your finger on the trigger, and the safety catch off.

[TimD]

Wise words there, and I wish more people would heed them.

Hope the lad's okay.

The trouble is, there is absolutely no emphasis placed on roadcraft, either in driving schools or in the test syllabus. Everything is done by rote. Now, it could be argued that roadcraft is something you pick up as you mature as a driver, but no one ever seems to tell the newly qualified that there is any need to carry on learning.

Once you've learned to pass your test, you then have to learn to drive.

I am so grateful that I hired my driving instructor AFTER I'd passed my test to give me tuition on motorway driving, skid control, cadence braking and that sort of thing. I hope it stood me in good stead.

Because the toll of cars amongst the newly qualified drivers in my college was astronomical. Bear in mind this is 1985 we are talking about - some of the cars may seem a little esoteric.

In a year, friends of mine killed a Mini 1000, Mini 1275GT, Morris Marina Coupe, Ford Granada 3 litre, 2 Honda Accords, Bedford HA Viva, Austin Allegro, Volvo 240, Volkswagen Beetle, Ford Escort XR3, MG Maestro 1600 and a Porsche 911 Turbo.

The accidents ranged from "a bollard jumped out in front of me" which did for the Mini, through "straight on at a hairpin bend and stop at the oak tree" for the Maestro to "sixty miles an hour along Wembley High Street" which is how our Volvo driver wrecked the parked, brand new Porsche.

And tellingly, the three biggest accidents happened to the three newest cars, the Maestro, the Volvo and one of the Accords. All three were bought by doting parents for the newly qualified driver of the family, and all three should really have saved the money and bought a clapped out Lada for the kiddies to play in instead.

[bella]

i have to say, i passed my test in november last year, after going out driving every night for an hour for about 2 months (my birthday was in april, and i missed a months in august when i was away). then, i still didn't have enough knowledge for taking on the road.

my college year was apparently bad for accidents. a lad was killed on a motorbike (a friend of one of my friends), another was killed at the beginning of the year, another lost her fingers when the metro with 4 people on the back seat snapped its axle at 60mph. two deaths happened in one tutor group and people were offered the chance to change groups.

for the first few months i was reasonably cautious. from about month 4 until month 12, i was going around like a bat out of hell because i could, and i knew how wide my car was and how much stick i could give it before it bit me.

part of the knowledge is all about knowing when to brake, and not to carry that much speed around a corner. it's knowing the limits of your car, and investigating what happens in the snow, rather than waiting for it to happen. it's best not to experience what happens when you're faced with a tree, and an angry father. my parents actively encorege me to go forth and play in the snow (we're lucky wnough to have a wide drive, and lots of grass..), or go to work and practice on the ice.

i just worry for my friend who spends most of his time razzing along in his little barried up nova that wouldn't survive hitting a lorry at 15mph, let alone 30. i think i should take some pictures of this kids car, and what's left of it, and email a copy of the story to him. it's the only way to get these lads to listen...

[SL]

May I recomend a day at the racecourse ??

Not long after passing my test I had a day at Brands Hatch that got the 'need for speed' out of the way for a year or so. After a few laps of the skid pan you soon found out what lack of control means. This followed by 10 laps in a FF after the training laps with the pro.

Not saying that I now drive like a snail, I just limit high peeds to roads and times that are suitable.

Simon

[Maisie]

Sorry Bella, but if you've only passed your test in November, no matter how well you think you know your car, I'd dispute your assertion that you're safe on the road. Your posts like "the police can't catch me" strike a dissonance with posts like the one that started this thread.

I've seen a fair few new drivers crash, fortunately only once with me in the car, and not seriously. My ex, a week before writing off his MOTHER's VW Jetta, professed that he "could control his car perfectly." And I replied that I was sick of him racing his friends around dark country lanes, and refused to be his passenger any more.

The point is, no matter how well you think you know your car, you cannot possibly know everything that's going on around you. You might have travelled a road every day, but if one day someone's spilt oil on it, or it's icy, if you're going hell for leather you simply aren't going to have the time to react. My ex's excuse for tearing round country roads being safe was that "if there was anything coming, I'd see the lights." And if it's a pedestrian? Cyclist? Animal? Doing 30, you can swerve round it safely. 50mph and it's much, much worse.

I don't claim to always stick to the speed limit. I like to think that I have better than average pickup of what's going on around me, and try to predict what will happen. However, having had a car accident in the last year, it's something I do NOT want to repeat. Firstly, it cost me a lot in terms of hassle and money. Secondly, I love my vehicles and do not want to see them so much as scratched. More to the point, if I were carrying passengers, I could not live with myself if I killed or injured them. I don't drive near my limits, and certainly not anywhere near the car's. I know the weak points of the car, which is why I drive at a reasonable speed. Oh, and while there is a certain joy in speed and cornering, I'm not out to prove anything, and I don't see the point in irresponsible thrill-seeking. Because that's what it is - irresponsible. Not only is it unfair to yourself, your car and your passengers to tear along regardless of others, it's also, as Bella pointed out, potentially lethal to other road users. you may be "in control" of your car, but you cannot know what every other road user is thinking, or is about to do.

That's why things like Jenson Button doing 140mph annoy me so much. I'm sure he's perfectly capable of handling a car at that speed, the point is, that's all very well on the race track, but if you're on a motorway and the car in front has a blowout, you're likely to end up in a fatal accident simply because you can't stop. Also, as happened to me a while ago, if you're the car in front, and you have some idiot doing a ridiculous speed coming up fast behind, you're under pressure to get out of the way, and may find yourself performing a manouuvre you're less than comfortable with to get out of the way - again, more chance of an accident.

Anyway, sorry for ranting at such great length - boy (or girl) racers really, really get my goat. The sheer arrogance of assuming you can do whatever the hell you like on the road, that you're somehow superhuman and can do anything safely in your vehicle, without a thought of the consequences is unacceptable.

There's a place for driving like that - it's called the racetrack. And even then the driving standards are probably more strictly enforced than on public roads. So ... if you want to drive fast, do it somewhere where you're only a danger to yourself.

[Sparky]

Perfectly put, Maisie.

[bella]

i passed my test in november 99. sorry, got lost with the dates. it was last year last year.
i've done about 20,000 km since then, and did manchester and back in a day once. i KNOW i'm not invincible - the fact i've already driven into the back on someone under the influence of lemsip max strength, been driven off the road twice by other idiots, driven people off the road myself because i failed to adapt properly to the shocks that are going down hill as we speak. i've nearly hit the back of someone on the m62 because i wasn't looking where i was going. personally, i've made plenty of mistakes. and i know i'm going to have an accident, but i've got a feeling it won't be my fault. i don't take risks anymore, like bounding around the country lanes at 75mph (horses, bikes, blind corners...). on motorways i go the speed of the traffic, not the speed of my accelerator foot.
most of the time when i post on car type topics, i'm taking the ****, because i know the police can catch me (don't remember ever saying that without a smily at the end of it). when i hit a bush because the car won't take the corner that fast anymore.

you can never know what's going on around the corner, but if you spend your life doing that, where will it get you?

i don't know if i'm the only one who spends most of her time on her own in her car, but i do. i only endanger myself if i'm the only one around. i only see how fast the car can go if i'm the only one on the motorway, that way i only kill myself. i have a pretty mundane life - all i do is stamp pieces of paper and sit at a computer. give me the choice to kill myself, please. i don't need some high and mighty telling me that it's not right to endanger myself when i choose to. and when i choose to, i'll go really slowly because i know that my reactions are slowed, and my car won't stick speed anymore.

now i'm not saying that maisie's boy racer picture isn't correct - my mate's going to kill himself sooner or later because he thinks, as he has done since he got that bit of paper from the government, that he's tommi makinen, and he can drive his little beat-up nova like it's a lancia integrale.

we all learn our lessons, it's just when and how painful. little wally has seriously injured his best friend. i'm going to hit another car, or get caught by a speed camera or police car i didn't see when they decide to finally track my car down. until then, i'll try not to kill anyone and be a good little girl. just like the idiots who drive at 60 on a motorway, and think they're being safe.

[TimD]

60 isn't safe, I agree, Bella. 60 is fast enough to kill you, but insidiously is slow enough to lull you to sleep.

SL has it right - the best place to learn about the handling and performance dynamics of the car is on a circuit, where the environment is controlled, and the architecture is designed to minimise the effect of overstepping the mark.

The open road isn't the place to try it out. A mistake starts to involve too many people. Having been on the scene when the police were dealing with an accident where an Alfasud hit a motorway bridge so hard you could make out the shape of the badge in the concrete, even a one-car, no passengers accident starts to impinge on too many other individuals.

That Alfasud was a cautionary tale to me. The back seat squab was touching the engine bulkhead. You don't want to know about the driver's seat...

I'm being entirely selfish here. Every preventable, high speed accident on our roads is another item for the legislation ninnies to chalk up.

"Speed Kills" is their mantra, and as long as they repeat it loud and long, eventually people will start to believe it.

Piffle. Inappropriate speed in an inappropriate situation kills. But if they start talking like that, then they will have to start to address the question as to why no one is training new drivers in what is an appropriate speed. And so people like the young man in his Alpina BMW have no alternative but to carry on pushing and pushing at the limits until he comes unstuck.

It is my firm belief that if only driving tuition was centred around learning to drive rather than just learning to pass the test, then our roads would be dramatically safer, and things like motorway speed limits would become unnecessary.

And I want to see a return to the days of derestricted motorways, when 140 by a skilled driver in a good car on a deserted road is seen as the reasonable action it genuinely is. We'll only see that if the national driver pool is sufficiently educated.

As an aside, did you know that the national motorway speed limit was introduced in 1967 as a six month trial measure?

[Green_man4421]

Cars are to scary, they go so fast they are like something from a science fiction movie so scary. Cept on a race track then they become entertaining.

I could get my license and a car, but it costs so much and I don't need it now. Helf my friends drive and they can always give me a lift if we are going somewhere together. I can ride my bike which I do regularly or catch the train that I will be doing 5 days a week this year.

Driving is just scary, all those cars that nearly run me over when I am riding, I don't want to be in control of one of them on the road.

Some of my friends are starting to drive to fast they have had there license for a while and are getting to confident. If I am in the car however I won't let them like alot of other people I know. I don't want to die in a car.

[bella]

tim, interesting point about the motorway speed limits.

as far as i can see, it should vary. in a perfect world, the signs should change, and even be accurate when the do change (we've all seen a 30mph sign on the motorway flashing like an old pervert, when there isn;t another car in sight). being a fan of all things french, their system is great. 130kmph in dry conditions, 110kmph when it's wet. perfect.

i think everyone should have a licence and access to a car. i have a friend (emily. i'm happy to name HER) who lives in ely, just outside cambridge, but on the other side to me. we're the last two of our group in cambridge, and have to go out on our own. she expects me to go to the station to pick her up, wait for and hour with her when she misses her train (ok, i'd do that anyway, it's just that she expects it), go out when she wants to go out, etc. far be it from me to point out that it also costs car owners money to go into town, just as much as a prissy train fare. its the way these people expect car drivers to go out of their way to help them, when they're too lazy or 'skint' (ha, ha. em earns more than me a month now, and i run a car...).

can't wait till i get my 18th birthday present (only a year late, folks), a track day at silverstone. it's going to be a lot of fun. almost as much fun as going round the village in the snow and finding out what happens when you slam the brakes on....

brett, cyclists are the scum of cambridge. they usually have no respect for the elementary rules of the road (give way to anything that's bigger than you. they are less likely to be able to stop), no knowledge of road etiquette, have never read the highway code in their entire life, and effectively, are similar in skills to putting a learner in a car on their own without any road experience at all. it's a rite of passage, knocking a cyclist off their bikes around town (one i have yet to reach). they should be banned. as for giving them space, don't be so bloody stupid as to ride on a country road with lots of blind corners. if you want to die, that's fine. just don't put the guilt on someone elses shoulders. i nearly hit someone when i came round a corner (at a slow speed, because i'd been fiddling with the stereo on a striaght bit of road, and slowed down a bit to do so), only to find a prat doing about 70 on my side of the road having just overtaken a cyclist. after slamming on the brakes, the guy missed me by an inch.

and horses. don't get me started on horses.

[Craig]

Originally posted by bella
i think everyone should have a licence and access to a car. i have a friend (emily. i'm happy to name HER) who lives in ely, just outside cambridge, but on the other side to me. we're the last two of our group in cambridge, and have to go out on our own. she expects me to go to the station to pick her up, wait for and hour with her when she misses her train (ok, i'd do that anyway, it's just that she expects it), go out when she wants to go out, etc. far be it from me to point out that it also costs car owners money to go into town, just as much as a prissy train fare. its the way these people expect car drivers to go out of their way to help them, when they're too lazy or 'skint' (ha, ha. em earns more than me a month now, and i run a car...).

Yeah, I know a few people like that too... bloody oafs! Bet she doesn't even offer any contributions to the petrol fund either ? No, thought not

I'm not going to comment on the boy racers subject, except to say that I agree totally with you about exploring the cars limits as often as possible in a nice open enviroment - Donington's car park, for instance... Then when you need to throw the thing around to avoid coming into contact with a vehicle failing to stop at a T junction, for example, you know just how the bugger's gonna handle.

A good example of this is that I drive a lot of different vans and trucks in my job - many of which are a bit of a handful to control under extreme braking when unladen due to the rear wanting to swap ends. I will, wherever possible, intentionally tonk the thing around the roads at our warehouse when taking over a new vehicle for the first time to see how it will handle.

The other day my boss was accompanying me and it didn't seem too wise a move. () 3/4 mile down the road, a car pulled out in front of us, and we nearly ended up in the woods cos I had no clue how the thing would react.

I may sometimes be guilty of going a bit fast or taking a corner or a roundabout a bit quick at times, but for that I blame my years of driving round London for a living... but i'm always well within the limits of the car when I do. Just ask Dan

[Bluebottle]

I recently had cause to cycle a couple of miles through Cambridge. It was dark, and there were many other riders of bikes (I can't call them cyclists, it's insulting to responsable cyclists!) I felt a little out of place because I had lights (two at each end) had a helmet and I stopped at red lights.
Cyclists and drivers can quite happily share our roads, even the dark lanes (there are bike lamps on the market as bright as car lights)
Uneducated idiots should not be allowed to use bikes, ironicly that includes a lot of Cambridge University students

[Carrie]

That was one of the worst things about being at uni, as I was the only person with a car all of my friends thought they could look upon me as a free taxi service!!! Grrr.

Looking on it now, I can see Simon's point about doing a driving course at a circuit. Less than a month after I passed my test I had the opportunity to drive round Croft, but I've got to admit I didn't have the confidence in a car to go out and do that then. I would love to now!!!

If there's one way to ensure that you've got confidence when driving, it's to tackle to M60 every day - the section I go on is meant to be the second busiest in the country after the M25 and quite a few years back now they decided to make 4 lanes out of the existing 3, so some of it has some wonderful 'wagon sandwich' narrow lanes. Some of the driving I witness on there every day is unbelievable.

Personally, I've had enough fun well before I was old enough to drive learning how good a Cortina and later and Astra and Cavalier are offroad on relative's farms Plus if you want speed and a bit of fun, a farm trike is loads of fun, just got to watch you don't topple the thing over

Finally, I made the mistake again tonight of driving home with that "Please feel free to cut me up" sign hanging from the front bumper. If there's one thing guaranteed to annoy me it's when that happens. The first culprit was a range rover going from the M56 to M60, I ended up a matter of inches from her rear bumper at 60 mph and as it turns out she was so busy gassing to her passenger that I'm pretty sure she was completely oblivious to what she'd done!!! Then as I got to Barton Bridge I encountered one of the "I want the outside lane and I want it now" brigade. You know the types, just joined the motorway and regardless of who else is around they just have to go straight for the outside lane!!!!!!

Brett, wouldn't it be nice if everyone could cycle everywhere, a sure fire way to ensure that no rules of the road are followed - how many times do you see cyclists riding the wrong way on one way streets, going through lights on red or riding at night without lights (my dad currently has a nice dent on his bonnet from a cyclist who was doing the latter of those two!). Also, whenever you finally get out into the real world and start working you'll find most employers expect their employees to have a driving licence.

[Craig]

Also, whenever you finally get out into the real world and start working you'll find most employers expect their employees to have a driving licence.

What could you mean ?

[TimD]

One of the most satisfying sights I ever witnessed was on Ealing Broadway about four years ago.

Watching a cyclist aboard one of those racing mountain bikes, carving his way through the Saturday shoppers as he cycled along the pavement.

When he came to a pelican pedestrian crossing, he jinked quickly onto the road to cross - and was involved in a head on collision with a bicycle courier who had ignored the red light controlling the traffic.

Perfect.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by TimD
One of the most satisfying sights I ever witnessed was on Ealing Broadway about four years ago.

Watching a cyclist aboard one of those racing mountain bikes, carving his way through the Saturday shoppers as he cycled along the pavement.

When he came to a pelican pedestrian crossing, he jinked quickly onto the road to cross - and was involved in a head on collision with a bicycle courier who had ignored the red light controlling the traffic.

Perfect.

I never knew you had such an evil streak running through you Tim

[TimD]

You better believe it!

Actually, I really felt the guy's pain as he went flying a-over-t over his handlebars and landed foursquare on his bottom.

At least, my ribs hurt a lot - it may have been the laughing, I don't know.


Carrie, just to come back on an anecdote of yours, I too had the luxury of farming relatives. And a beat-up '74 Mini Van with a lacework floorpan to learn to drive on, and a '66 Land Rover with an evil gearchange thereafter to keep me humble. And several hundred acres to go and play on - the only proviso being I mustn't get the Land Rover stuck anywhere inaccessible.

I miss that Land Rover. It was cannibalised for spares after some twerp in a Volvo Estate spun in front of my uncle and hit him. That's what comes of going hell for leather down a country road. On the other hand, the Volvo driver was lucky it was a Land Rover he hit. That same country road was also a regular route for a pony-and-trap, and for an octogenarian lady who would ride her 1920s tricycle to the market. And like it or not, they have just as much right to be on the highway as any motorist.

[D428 CHO]

Originally posted by Carrie
most employers expect their employees to have a driving licence.

...which is fine unless, like me, you live in a remote area with no means of coughing up the money required to get a driving license. The only way to achieve that is employment, but oh dear no driving license so no job!

It's a mad world. Some of you don't know just how lucky you are