Pilbeam

[Steve Wilkinson]

In 1976/77 the Yorkshire pairing of Elliot & Dungworth built three 'new' Pilbeams which they gave the nomenclature MP22. These three cars were 'copies' of the Pilbeam R22 which was itself a development of the R15.

Now R15 started life as a Brabham BT38 (chassis 28 to be precise).

The three MP22 chassis were all based on Brabham's. The question is which?

[allenbrown]

Were they really based on Brabhams? I always throught the MP22 monocoques were built by Pilbeam. He certainly had the facilities, ability and experience.

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

Although bearing the Pilbeam name they were not built by Mike Pilbeam but were to his design. The chassis were either based on Brabhams or possibly Brabham copies or 'neo-Brabham' tubs!

The three cars were the first to carry the MP prefix as previous projects were prefixed with an R.

I'll keep digging to see if anyone can improve on this!

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Although bearing the Pilbeam name they were not built by Mike Pilbeam but were to his design. The chassis were either based on Brabhams or possibly Brabham copies or 'neo-Brabham' tubs!

The three cars were the first to carry the MP prefix as previous projects were prefixed with an R.

I'll keep digging to see if anyone can improve on this!

The Pilbeam site http://www.pilbeamracing.co.uk/index2.html calls them R22 - Cosworth DFV development of R15.

And the R15 they describe as "Hillclimb development of Brabham BT38"

[275 GTB-4]

Steve, if you search Atlas F1 you will find about three pages of Pilbeam threads......your question has probably been answered there, Cheers

[Megashed Teaboy]

As far as i know, there was only 1 Pilbeam MP22 built, this was hillclimbed by Malcolm Dungworth under the W & G banner with a 3.3 litre DFV fitted. The other W & G car was a MP31 fitted with a 3.6 liter DFV and was used by ADO. Peter Kaye also had a MP31 DFV at about the same time 1978 ish. Both the MP31's were destroyed in accidents ADO's at Fintray and Peter Kayes at Barbon.The MP22 is still around, and i think is owned by Sandra Tomlin at the moment although now fitted with a 4 cylinder Hart engine.

Cheers

Mad Ferrit

Rich

[allenbrown]

There were three MP22s according to the notes I made in period:

MP22-01 destroyed Val Des Terres 1978
MP22-02 M Dungworth 1979; P Kaye 1980
MP22-03 (new in 1980) M Dungworth 1980 and 1981

Reading quickly through Mason, the MP22 story starts with Richard Shardlow in the ex-Tate of Leeds Brabham BT38 (identified on the BT38 thread as BT38/28) with a 2.0 BDG in 1973 (p249). ADO had the ex-Shardlow BT38 with a 2.0 BDA in 1974 (p253) and then had it rebuilt by Pilbeam as the R15 for 1975 (p267) and fitted with a 2.2 BDG. The R22 appeared in 1976 (p273) and was his R15 stretched and fitted with a Cosworth DFV. This became the MP22 in 1977 (p283) but was crashed at Doune (p289) and "totally rebuilt" for Dungworth to drive in 1978 (p290). He wrecked it as Val Des Terres (p294). Mason even calls it MP22-01 on one occasion.

Mason isn't clear on Dungworth's 1979 car but, in 1980, Dungworth had "a new MP22, chassis 03 built up" and his "old MP22-02" went to Kaye (p304).

Whether newly retired BT38 tubs were used for MP22-02 and MP22-03 is entirely unclear.

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

The chassis know as R22 started life as Allen Brown points out as Brabham BT38-28. It was then modified by Mike Pilbeam and became R15. This was subsequently modified to take a DFV and became R22.

I will be writing to Malcolm Dungworth to try to clear up the origins of the THREE MP22 chassis that appeared and will post the response in due time.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Just got off the phone after a long chat with Malcolm Dungworth. He is currently writing the History of the MP22 Cars - coincidence or what?

As this will be a substantial piece I am going to see if we can get this into Speedscene magazine and also onto Ten Tenths!

It will also include some never before disclosed information

[PRF]

Earlier this year I was fortunate to be invited to a factory visit at Mike Pilbeam's Unit in Bourne, Lincolnshire. Mike showed around twenty of us and was a most interesting person. He explained that he originally moved to Bourne to work for BRM but left the company in 1974 I think. He was kicking his heels and was approached by a hillclimber to sort his chassis out for him. I'm sure he said it was either a Brabham or a March but I stand to be corrected. He went on to talk of his F1 comeback with David Purley's LEC CRP1 Grands Prix car. A car I often refer to as a 'back yard special' that still lead a Grands Prix, Zolder 1977 for a glancing moment might I add!

Various hillclimb cars were present in the workshops along with a wind tunnel model of his new creation the Le Mans car to be entered by PiR.

Friendly enough is Mike and approachable. I'm sure if you approached him he would open the factory gates for an organised trip.

Sorry to be off topic.

[don_ham]

My dad owned a MP22 for a couple of years, cant remember which chasis number it was though. He bought it from Peter speakman in 1990. The car had a 2.5 hart in it. He maintained that Pilbeam designed the car around a BT38 He sold it a couple of seasons (1993ish) later to Ian stringer and tim Mason i think, There is some run off footage of Tim Mason at Barbon driving the car in the 1994 championship video. Dont know where it is now!

I know one of the time keepers who was in the bus at ruin corner at fintray when ADO had the big crash. He said the bus felt as if it were going to capsize!! not the best situation seeing he was on the top deck!

[don_ham]

correction to the above My dad sold the car to Martin Middleton who must have then sold it on to Ian stringer and Tim Mason

[allenbrown]

Thanks for the information Don.

[don_ham]

Have found out that the chasis number on the mp 22 my Dad had was 03

[Steve Wilkinson]

Willem Toet in the MP88 at Craigantlet in 2005

[Nordic]

Type Ch No Formula Details

MP22 Speed Three Chassis built by Dungworth & Elliot allowed to carry the Pilbeam name. They were built up from replica BT38 chassis.
Dungworth 1980

(I have this listed as MP23 - 03 as taken from the program)

MP40 02 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) MP40G

MP40 01 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Rob Turnbull, then to Ted Williams, then to Tony Brown, then to Brian Walker, then to Steve Allen, then to Martin Middleton, then to Roger Kilty and finally back to Martin Middleton.

MP40(41)1980(Turnbull)
MP40 1981 (R Fry)
This appears to be the same car colour wise?

MP43 01 Speed Dave Garnett (Hart engined Sports Libre)
MP43 Garnett

MP50 01 Speed Dave Harris (Hart Engined) MP50 Dave Harris

MP50 02 Speed Martin Bolsover (1.6 Ford BDA) {aka MP51} Bolsover subsequently installed a Hart engine before selling it to Jim Thomson for Tim Thomson to drive.
MP51 Bolsover 1981


I have added some pictures taken in period of these cars based on my limited knowledge and the Programs I have available.

I hope its of some use, a picture is worth a thousands words as they say!

If any of the captions are wrong, I am sure they can be changed.

[Dan Rear]

Steve, re MP37 the mods were to a Williams FW04, not 05, which after the work became the ill-fated McGuire BM01. Any more info on the MP48, the Betteridge FAt car. I don't recall this at all. And the MP34 Boxer developments, were these after Max Harvey took the car over for climbing ?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Steve, re MP37 the mods were to a Williams FW04, not 05, which after the work became the ill-fated McGuire BM01. Any more info on the MP48, the Betteridge FAt car. I don't recall this at all. And the MP34 Boxer developments, were these after Max Harvey took the car over for climbing ?

Nothing on Betteridge's car.

The mods to the Boxer were for Brian Lewis and were some time before Max Harvey bought the car.

[Judd]

Steve,

just found this fascinating history... and I've got a query! I was sure that the Lees-Milne MP58 was related to the Hickman MP58. The cars originally fitted with Hart four cylinder engines by Pilbeam had additional aluminium "pontoons" to support the chassis loads. An "H" was also added to the chassis number (ours was MP58-02H). The pontoons are present on our car 02H and on Jim Robinson's car (the number escapes me but it is definitely an H designation). However, the Lees-Milne four cylinder doesn't have these pontoons and uses a tubular engine frame instead.

If Hickman had fitted a V8 to Jim's car, then these pontoons would have been cut off. I don't remember seeing Jim refitting pontoons when he fitted his engine - and I was sure that when he bought the car he took a Hart out, to put his Hart in. However, for a four cylinder to have been fitted to the Hickman V8 car, an engine frame as per Lees-Milne's would need to be made up.

I may have just added confusion to a well-researched piece!

Sorry,

Oliver

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Judd

Steve,

just found this fascinating history... and I've got a query! I was sure that the Lees-Milne MP58 was related to the Hickman MP58. The cars originally fitted with Hart four cylinder engines by Pilbeam had additional aluminium "pontoons" to support the chassis loads. An "H" was also added to the chassis number (ours was MP58-02H). The pontoons are present on our car 02H and on Jim Robinson's car (the number escapes me but it is definitely an H designation). However, the Lees-Milne four cylinder doesn't have these pontoons and uses a tubular engine frame instead.

If Hickman had fitted a V8 to Jim's car, then these pontoons would have been cut off. I don't remember seeing Jim refitting pontoons when he fitted his engine - and I was sure that when he bought the car he took a Hart out, to put his Hart in. However, for a four cylinder to have been fitted to the Hickman V8 car, an engine frame as per Lees-Milne's would need to be made up.

I may have just added confusion to a well-researched piece!

Sorry,

Oliver

Judders! I don't know if you have spotted it but there is a Pilbeam MP58 for sale at the present complete with a Rover V8 in situ. It looks remakably like the Guy Lees-Milne car! I think a little more digging is called for!

Thanks a bunch!

[Guy Lees-Milne]

Hi Steve,
I'll see if i can add a little more confusion to the story of my old Pilbeam MP58-07. To my knowledge the car was originally set up as a V8, as when i purchased it from Graham Hickman it came with the engine mounts for it. It was also supplied with a Hewland fg box with was far too big for it. Now i can not remember if Graham had run this Pilbeam with a V8 or his previous one. Graham ran the car with a 2 ltr bda for 2 seasons before i bought it. I used to sponsor him, as his local supplier of fine ale and food( The Lion at Clifton-on-Teme) well it was good then!!!!!!!!!!!! i followed him up to Doune while he was running a 2 ltr, he failed to score as his fancy starter was inop, needless to say i made sure when i had it it was on the button!!!! Any way i digress. I ran the car with a 2ltr bdx on webber alfa injection, i used to sets of side pods, one set full length originally designed for V8 the other a much smaller pair with no downforce effect. The engine that i used i sold to The Squire brothers who are big into rallying MK2 escorts, the tub, rolling chassis and box were sold seperatly. i hope i havn't confused the issue too much. If you want any other info please feel free to contact me.
Regards
Guy

[911thillclimber]

This is my very first entry to this Forum, so I am an absolute novice to single seaters!

Question though:

I intend to move from tin top hillclimbing to pre 85 single seaters.

I want a V8 (prefer Rover) but have seen the great MP58 for sale on Motorsportads like several others I'm sure.

The owner I know from my past racing the 911 on the hills, and he thinks the MP 58 is a 1987 car.

Is the MP58 design dated before then?

When was the car introduced as a design rather than Pauls's car?

Thanks,
Graham.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

This is my very first entry to this Forum, so I am an absolute novice to single seaters!

Question though:

I intend to move from tin top hillclimbing to pre 85 single seaters.

I want a V8 (prefer Rover) but have seen the great MP58 for sale on Motorsportads like several others I'm sure.

The owner I know from my past racing the 911 on the hills, and he thinks the MP 58 is a 1987 car.

Is the MP58 design dated before then?

When was the car introduced as a design rather than Pauls's car?

Thanks,
Graham.

That particular car was built during the latter part of 1990 and first appeared in 1991.

MP58/01 was built for the 1987 season but the design was available for several years.

If you want specifically Pre 1985 cars then they fall into two categories:-

1) The V8 Rover engined cars that competed in era:

The Alan Payne/Paul Gething Anson SA4
The ex-Merrick/Penrose/Cannell Ralt RT1

2) The older cars that you could try and track down and then fit a Rover engine into:

The MP47 still with Martin Middleton & for sale I believe.
The ex-Mason/Crawford MP50 which I understand Alistair still has.

Either way you would be faced with a doubly difficult task; first to track down the car and second to slot in a Rover V8 assuming you also get the gearbox with the chassis!

There are other Historic Hillclimb cars that are not V8 powered which are currently on the market for a reasonable price - some of which are complete and ready to rock n roll!

[Judd]

I believe it is the Lees-Milne car - modified by Martin Elsmore. Note that in the picture on racecarsdirect you can see that the roll hoop is the narrow angle version, subtly different to the wide angle one on our car. The narrow angle one is perched on top of an ali extension which allowed the V8s to be fitted (higher mounting points to the cam covers). Therefore this car was originally built and left the factory as a V8.

Enjoy the research - its a fascinating piece.

As an aside, perhaps you might be able to tell us what aborted F3 project our OMS CF96 came from?

Oliver

[Paul Ranson]

MP82 03 Speed Dave Butler (2.5 Millington) used only a couple of times prior to Butler pulling out due to family commitments. The car was sold to John Leinster and is currently for sale.

I think this car went on to Andrew Howell in Australia. It is however currently for sale...

Paul