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Old 28 Jan 2012, 15:40 (Ref:3018221)   #1
D-Type
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D-Type should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Doug Nye's article "History - a given, not a gift".

In the current Motor Sport Doug Nye has written an article titled "History - a given, not a gift". He describes the practice of
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~ proper-car owners becoming dissatisfied withe caopabilities of their proper car's proper chassis and then selling it off "without the history" so they can rebuild their car around a fresh, and more competitive chassis.
He expands this to the scenario where someone takes the discarded chassis and builds up a car on it. We then potentially have two cars claiming the same "identity"

I don't know if this question has been discussed previously as I seldom visit this subforum but I would be interested in the views of those who are actively competing in historic racing.
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Old 28 Jan 2012, 20:22 (Ref:3018313)   #2
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Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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In the current Motor Sport Doug Nye has written an article titled "History - a given, not a gift". He describes the practice of
He expands this to the scenario where someone takes the discarded chassis and builds up a car on it. We then potentially have two cars claiming the same "identity"

I don't know if this question has been discussed previously as I seldom visit this subforum but I would be interested in the views of those who are actively competing in historic racing.
I have just had a car offered to me, a single seater at a very good price.
Researched it on the net (most of it in 10/10 chassis history forum) and found exactly this story.
somebody rebuilds a car, with a reframe, laters sells complete chassis and car seperately, now 2 cars exist.....

done by a well known collector
offered to me by "friend"
lesson, dont buy anything that Yoo have not checked by somebody who knows that particular make

2 hours on the net saved me considerable aggro and a lot of money

Rudolf
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Old 30 Jan 2012, 13:48 (Ref:3018936)   #3
john ruston
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john ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Doug Nye is the most able journalist historian around and a good bloke to boot.We have had our disagreements on the other place.

He probably comes from the point of view that there is very little connection between Historic Racing and Historic cars .I am beginning to agree with him.

It's an interesting topic when you read this stuff about Appendix K .Less and less Historic and more and more look alike s.Pleased I am at the retirement end of the hobby and think we were there at the best times at end of 90's and for next four years.The MM was a real event although nothing like the original one rather than the car exhibition it is today.Shell/Ferrari challenge,Real Pre War stuff and very little of those 60's things.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 11:50 (Ref:3021435)   #4
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john ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Have now read the article and should be required reading for all people involved in Historic Motoring.Put it in the entrant packages at LMC,Monaco,Goodwood and all the other places.

Of course he is 100% correct!

Basic premise.All involved get real
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 13:30 (Ref:3021473)   #5
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ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!ensign14 is going for a new world record!
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It's an interesting topic when you read this stuff about Appendix K .Less and less Historic and more and more look alike s.Pleased I am at the retirement end of the hobby and think we were there at the best times at end of 90's and for next four years.
That's the problem, isn't it? It ought to be a hobby, but for some it's about pot-hunting.

If they want trophies, maybe they should race in contemporary series. Or maybe those are a bit too hard...
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 14:42 (Ref:3021508)   #6
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Probably the contemporary races are better policed.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 15:45 (Ref:3021543)   #7
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john ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Nothing to do with being better policing.

It all about what is Historic Motoring.Jenks was correct in his assertion that it's not real racing.

Read the article.

Possibility more people would do it if the people involved forgot about changing the cars.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 16:50 (Ref:3021568)   #8
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Which is exactly whats been said quite a few times in the past.
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Old 4 Feb 2012, 20:05 (Ref:3021624)   #9
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john ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjohn ruston should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Can't remember it being as succinct before.

It's about peoples mind set before they start rather than the actual mechanics.

The base premise is that very sensible people lose their marbles when getting involved with old cars.
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Old 5 Feb 2012, 08:36 (Ref:3021740)   #10
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Here is a quote from DCN from a little while ago that I thought was worth saving at the time....



The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things.

DCN

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Old 5 Feb 2012, 11:42 (Ref:3021794)   #11
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Problem is,it will never stop! Sounds very much like the GT40 chassis section that has grown into a 'historicly important vehicle'[Wonder where the new one is?]
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Old 6 Feb 2012, 08:34 (Ref:3022054)   #12
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zefarelly should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridzefarelly should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
new chassis plates are often the first bit to be remanufactured
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Old 7 Feb 2012, 21:54 (Ref:3022862)   #13
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Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I am now at a point where I dont believe anything about a historic (race) car anymore until I have checked out history and details with trusted experts.

Last weekend I was at the Classic Car fair in Bremen near where I live.
A dealer (well known for sailing very close to the wind) displayed a very rare German Sports Racer, a 1950ies Borgward RS. I have wanted one for a while, so I looked into it.
The engine is obviously original, You just cant fake an obscure German Twin Cam Racing engine WITH BOSCH DIRECT FUEL INJCETION.
The bodywork is brand new, unpainted, but the car is claimed to be original.
I just dont trust that guy....


One hour later, I am disillusioned again.
Turns out that some of these engines were fitted to Cooper single seaters in period, mostly by Germans.
As the DI Injection is very difficult to run and the Borgward engine is underdeveloped against the Climax FPF, they were later removed and replaced by Coventrys best.

The car is newly built around one of these engines.
"history unknown"

Asking price was 450.000 Euros, too much for what is mostly a replica.


arrrrrrrrrrg



Rudolf
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Old 8 Feb 2012, 03:09 (Ref:3022942)   #14
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
DN obviously has the same ideal's as some of us. New cars with original number plates etc etc.
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Old 9 Feb 2012, 07:45 (Ref:3023557)   #15
Giraffe138
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Giraffe138 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Not long ago I viewed a well known car on behalf of a syndicate who were interested in acquiring it. During it's considerable career, it had been retubbed (the original tub forming the base for a similar car which now claims non-specific history).
As it was about 40% into it's period career when it was retubbed, my calculation of it's market price was to take the estimated value of an identical car with no period history to speak of and subtract that from the asking price, and then to add to this 40% of the difference between this and the asking price for it's history.
Needless to say, the owner also valued the car with the history it didn't actually have.
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