BTCC Knockhill 28th August - was disgraceful driving punished?

[Kicking-back]

The thing is, it seems the organisers only want marshals to wave flags and pick up bits of crashed cars.

They're not really interested in your views on incidents.

Whether that's right or wrong is another debate of course.

[JohnD]

Andrew (Kitson),
My apologies for having missed the earlier thread you started - this one was precipitated by ye another example of the trend you have seen. My reason for bringing it up was that in my championship (TSSC/TRR) a disastrous meeting at Mallory led to allegations from non-racers in our club that things were getting as bad as BTCC. They are not, but as many above have pointed out, this is how motor racing is now perceived.

All,
We have above, opinions and facts from many marshals, race officials and racers. Hard evidence that our sport IS being brought into disrepute.
May I suggest?:
1/ Marshals and observers, continue to document such events, here. Your names are not essential but the location and date is.
2/ That the MSA Race Committee is asked to consider the accumulated evidence, of bad driving standards, in the BTCC and elsewhere, and of how it affects motor racing and its image.

Robim Knight gave a very civil reply to my earlier letter about the way that Black Flags are shown, that used a thread here as evidence of inconsistent and arbitrary methods. I have not heard any more, but neither do I know how often the Race Committee meets.

Mr.Kitson? Would you write the letter, please? I don't mind being a stirrer, but not to be seen as a one-man revolution!

JOhn

[blue nose]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

track; I can see no reason for ever marshalling at another TOCA meeting; the weekend of Oulton's meeting next year will see me at Mallory, Cadwell, anywhere........

Well said Dave,It would be funny if no marshals turned up....that would make them pay attention.

[Al Weyman]

Well if enough of you vote with your feet then they will have to listen.

[Kicking-back]

Maybe they'd just use paid "rescue teams" instead?

[johnw]

I am overseas and haven't seen the Knockhill races, but no apologies for part quoting myself from Andrew's previous thread.

I agree with Andrew and Dave Brand. Rubbin' isn't racing - it's just *******g rubbin' - there is nothing skilful about taking someone out - we can all do it.

The BTCC has become a contact series, priding itself on crash and bash. The comics perpetuate this with their "thrills and spills" and "heroes and villans" type of reporting.

The authorities (stewards?) condone (even encourage) these tactics, by taking no serious action against the perpetrators. If we all think that the driving standards are pathetic, the stewards of the BTCC must be using a different set of standards.

As a club racer, I would like "professional" series to be differentiated from "club" series, where avoidable accident damage can stop you racing for the season or even forever. I can't find the words non-contact in the Blue Book, so let's have them back in there to describe club sport, and explicitly designate such as the BTCC as a contact series, just as in short oval stock car racing.

From K-B's post it is now obvious that BTCC promotion is contact based.

From Mc1arke's post it is also obvious that Gow has the MSA officials as puppets.

Surely the action needed to protect club racing is to define the BTCC and other "professional" (sic) series as contact sport, and the rest as non contact?

(BTW I am not ignoring the dangers associated with the driving standards in the BTCC, as no doubt there would be litigation following an an accident involving marshals, spectators or drivers.)

[jim69]

[QUOTE=johnw]
Surely the action needed to protect club racing is to define the BTCC and other "professional" (sic) series as contact sport, and the rest as non contact?

I thought contact motorsport was called BANGER RACING and run on oval circuits.

Maybe the fact that the TOCA clerks are on the payroll and are having a good time traveling around the country on expenses clouds thier judgement!!!!!!!

[Red Baron]

Originally Posted by mc1arke

When Smith came off at the start of the third race I and one other marshal ran down to his car, found we couldn't push it so got Smith out and ran back up to the post. Our observer radioed in that the car was in a safe position (which it was, we had only has one other car near that position in the whole weekend) but the safety car was already scrambled as the Clerks were watching it on TV.

I too was stood at the chicane when Smith paid you a visit and I have to say that I agree with the decision of the Clerks. I am not an observer but I can see and the fact that you had only had one car in that particular gravel trap previous to Smith all weekend is ( inmy view) no reason to think that he was in a safe place. The fact that Smith was your second visitor was surely a good reason to move him, especially given the conditions and the number of cars that were bunched up together through teh approach to the chicane etc...

Rosie

[Red Baron]

Originally Posted by mc1arke

When Smith came off at the start of the third race I and one other marshal ran down to his car, found we couldn't push it so got Smith out and ran back up to the post. Our observer radioed in that the car was in a safe position (which it was, we had only has one other car near that position in the whole weekend) but the safety car was already scrambled as the Clerks were watching it on TV.

I too was stood at the chicane when Smith paid you a visit and I have to say that I agree with the decision of the Clerks. I am not an observer but I can see and the fact that you had only had one car in that particular gravel trap previous to Smith all weekend is ( in my view) no reason to think that he was in a safe place. The fact that Smith was your second visitor was surely a good reason to move him, especially given the conditions and the number of cars that were bunched up together through the approach to the chicane etc...

Rosie

[Red Baron]

I forgot to say, that I did find the decision not to penalise Plato for his move on Howell a bit bizarre!!!

Rosie

[Red Baron]

I forgot to say that I did find the Clerks decision not to penalise Plato for his move on Howell a bit bizarre. I generally like Plato, but it was a pretty blatant manouvre.

Rosie

[Red Baron]

I forgot to say that I did find the Clerks decision not to penalise Plato for his move on Howell a bit bizarre. I generally like Plato, but it was a pretty blatant manouvre.

Rosie

[Red Baron]

Hmm, I'm guessing you're catching my drift

Sorry for multiple posts. my darned PC kept telling me that my post had failed to send. Arghh!!!

Rosie

[Stephen Green]

I think we are all suffering with this problem Rosie, I have made several multiple posts thinking it hadn't posted the first time.

[Sodemo]

Plato's move was a discrace, and typifies what is wrong with the BTCC today.

[Red Baron]

I'm running for cover as I say this cos I know I'll probably receive a barrage of abuse.....

....but I actually enjoyed all of the races at Knockhill, as I have most of the races throughout the BTCC season (support races included). Yes, I know there have been some dubious manouvres, but neither these or the smaller grids have spoiled the racing for me.


Rosie

[+ its a Chevy]

I would pretty much class myself as the casual viewer of motorsport, only watch the F1 stuff now for the start and the pitstops - nothing else to see unless something breaks but i guess thats been covered elsewhere. I used to love watching the Touring cars as that was 'real racing', normal looking cars like your dad had etc etc. There will always be the sensationalist view of the crashes being 'exciting' to see as with the barging and bumping. But having read alot of the recent posts on this subject, if thats your thing then go watch banger racing. Touring car RACING is meant to be exactly that, as many posters have said so far, any of us could climb into a car and ram our way round a track with little difficulty. I havent seen any of the recent racing mainly thru laziness rather than stubborness but then i guess if it were racing based, i'd have made the effort.

There are many answers to this from the big brother side through to pulling the driver off the track immediately. Something needs to be done soon because as its been said before, one silly move will one day lead to something a lot more nasty than a dented door panel.

Why not penalise the offending driver by way of points deduction or if (as it would seem) they dont give a damn, start penalising the teams. that way they might take some notice, A lot of the posts here confirm that this is largely a manufacturer based series and that they are holding a large slice of the power. surely if they get slapped, they'll have to control their drivers a bit better. Is it a case of the likes of Muller and Plato becomming too big for their boots i wonder???

[Teletubby]

I'm with Rosie on this, I too have enjoyed most of the races on the package this year. And to suggest that Alan Gow overrules some of the most senior officials in the country, who are happy to go along with perverse decisions because they are being treated to 'jollies' is libellous to say the least!

I would suggest that allegations and comments such as those in this thread can only harm the perception of marshalling to both the casual browser and those from the clubs who may be lurking!

I'm sorry but why is it impossible for a sensible thread to run without recourse to near hysteria?

[youngoldy]

On one hand, its great fun to watch, but on the other, if the backmarkers are involved and are totally innocent, they are putting money into an expensive race series and it being wasted for some inappropiate driving from the top guys who can afford to make mistakes because they have more money, and potentially championship losing crashes. What I think needs to be stopped, is penalising drivers at the next race by putting them further down the grid, and what will this encourage them to do, lunge at the backmarkers and do exactly what they have been punished for. What I think needs to be done is fine them some money and at the least, a 1 race ban (not meeting). So they will then take up the second of the three races, and if they continue with the 'ungentleman like' driving, then the stewards and marshalls will decide after the second race but before the third if they will be allowed to take the start the 3rd race or have to sit it out. In a very siveer warning, the driver will then be penalised the whole of the next race meeting!


But then Im only a spectator, so what do I know!!

[Al Weyman]

Forget about fining them money to line the MSA's coffers, make them pay for the damage they have inflicted on their hapless victims in the same way as they would have to in a road accident.

[JohnD]

All,
Please, allegations are uncalled for and solutions are unnecessary - the first we may leave to the MSA and the second are already in place, as anyone who transsgresses in a club race will quqickly find out. What is needed is not more opinion, but more evidence.
Marshals, Observers - please document the incidents you see and report, on which nothing is done. If a series of such events (every, but every BTCC race) is so dicumented, the MSA must take note. Rants and opinions can be discounted.

JOhn

[jim69]

Originally Posted by JohnD

All,
Please, allegations are uncalled for and solutions are unnecessary - the first we may leave to the MSA and the second are already in place, as anyone who transsgresses in a club race will quqickly find out. What is needed is not more opinion, but more evidence.
Marshals, Observers - please document the incidents you see and report, on which nothing is done. If a series of such events (every, but every BTCC race) is so dicumented, the MSA must take note. Rants and opinions can be discounted.

JOhn

Do you not think that you have completly missed the point.

People are saying that they ARE reporting incidents but they are not being acted on in TOCA races. However in club racing the same type of incidents are acted on and drivers penalised.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally Posted by jim69

Do you not think that you have completly missed the point.

People are saying that they ARE reporting incidents but they are not being acted on in TOCA races. However in club racing the same type of incidents are acted on and drivers penalised.

Are all TOCA races ( support races) having incidents not acted upon or just BTCC?

[Stephen Green]

I think it's largely the BTCC Andrew.

[Kicking-back]

Well, all marshals/observers can do is provide reports on incidents.

Whether they are acted on or not is largely irrelevant to that role.