BTCC Knockhill 28th August - was disgraceful driving punished?

[Red Baron]

I agree KB. As long as marshals/observers report what they see, then they can go home with a guilt free conscience. I can imagine that it is frustrating when incidents reported are not acted upon, but the punishment (if any) is for the Clerks to decide upon and the affected teams to worry/complain about. As marshals we are only there to provide information for the Clerks to make informed decisions.

On many occasions we may not agree with the Clerks, but I don't see what can be done about that. Ultimate responsibility lies with the Clerks and in instances when they over rule decisions, such as that made by the observer re Smiths car at the chicane in Knockhill, I don't for one minute expect that it is made to undermine said observer, but merely because they thought the car was unsafe and if anything had gone off into Smiths car, the Clerks would be the ones to get it in the neck, not the observer. Had the observer reported that the car was unsafe and the Clerks over ruled that, I think there would be cause for complaint.

Rosie

[JohnD]

All,
I'm sorry. I should have written, "please document HERE the incidents you see and report, on which nothing is done." If the next person in the chain of command is not complying, then you need to go higher - the higher the better. But if you do go over anyone's head, you have to have the evidence, or it's your head.

Andrew Kitson, who started the 'other' thread about this, is 'in the business' - he may not be in a position to make waves. If you, the marshals whose reports are being ignored, will document those incidents here, anonymously if you wish, then that list of incidents can be shown to the Race Committee. I'll ask for it to be raised there, though any one with a licence can do so.

John

[Andrew Kitson]

I think I already have John! I'm happy to voice my opinion but perhaps the letter you propose should come from someone far more qualified than me! Yes I have a lot of experience in watching motor races and have MSA media credentials to gain access and take reference photos for my paintings, but have never marshalled. I therefore think it would be better coming from those involved in the actual running of an event, such as an observer. You chaps are the ones on the bank week in-week out and the first line of defence against these hooligans in the BTCC. I do not have to be there, marshals do.

[Stephen Green]

John,

One of the many things we are asked not to do as marshals is discuss specific incidents as there may be legal action pending and comment could jeopardise the case.

As an Observer I write reports on what I see (not conjecture) which are passed to the COC for their consideration and possible action by the stewards. I believe that is my 'job' and that any penalty administered should be done by the Stewards of COC. There may be occasions where I haven't seen the whole picture and therefore there could be mitigating circumstances.

I think we would be treading a dangerous path to start discussing various incidents in full over a public forum.

[JohnD]

Andrew, Stephen,
Thank you for filling out the picture, as it were. I should make clear that I am principally a racer, who goes bankside occasionally. My concern is for my own race series when the only UK race series with regular TV coverage showed disgraceful driving behaviour that was not disciplined by the only authority able to do so, despite it being reported by that authority's officers. If I may describe the Marshal as a professional, there must be a point when professional duty demands that they take action outside the normal 'chain of command'. EG If a doctor is a drunk and the hospital will do nothing, you go to the GMC, but you would need to have evidence, reports and statements from colleagues about their behaviour, to substantiate your concern.

Having said that, there may be hope. I just got round to watching the BTCC Silverstone meeting on video (I've been away). Second race, Plato v. Chilton on Club straight. A simple two car drag to the next corner and Plato hits his opponent from the back in the middle of the straight. Not as blatent or clear cut as pevious incidents, but I was somewhat reassured that the Stewards disqualified him from the race.

Maybe the MSA Stewards do frequent this site!

JOhn

[hogmany]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Andrew, Stephen,
...... I was somewhat reassured that the Stewards disqualified him from the race.

Maybe the MSA Stewards do frequent this site!

JOhn

John,

In the UK, for meetings held under the Blue Book, the Clerk of the Course is responsible for the initial judical actions. The Clerks actions can be appealed to the Stewards of the Meeting.

In this case the Clerk took the decision to exclude Jason Plato, which also means 4 points on his race licence. The exclusion placed him at the back of the grid for the final race. In addition I believe he has also been docked 6 grid positions at the first race at Brands.

[JohnD]

Thanks, Hogmany, I really should read the Blue Book more!
John

[McPherson Strut]

It is now common knowledge that Alan Gow spent all the Touring Car races at Knockhill in Race Control and was influential in making decisions as to when the Safety Car was deployed amongst other things. So who's in charge !!!

[JohnD]

MacPherson,
Glad for your input, but what would be needed to sway the Race Committee is accounts from observers and marshals who have seen and reported incidents of bad driving standards, that have been ignored or deflected by Race Officials. The interpretation of why this happens, or who influences it must be left to them.
John

[hogmany]

Originally Posted by McPherson Strut

It is now common knowledge that Alan Gow spent all the Touring Car races at Knockhill in Race Control and was influential in making decisions as to when the Safety Car was deployed amongst other things. So who's in charge !!!

The Clerk of the Course is in charge! For the BTCC there are two very experienced Clerks who made the decisions!

[JohnD]

All,
I've just had my copy of Motorsport Now! (yawn), Rule Change Special. This promulgates changes to O 1.1.5 ("Reckless driving") and O 2.6.2 (To concentrate on bad behaviour out of the driving seat).

But the really interesting thing I got from reading these again was to find next to them:
Reg O 2.1 which specificly allows the BTCC "to vary the judicial procedures in respect of driving offences contrary to General Regs E 5.1.8 (A driver must drive at all times in a manner compatible with general safety......), O 1.1.5 ("Reckless or dangerous driving") and O 1.1.6 ("Careless driving").
and
Reg O 2.1.2 that BTCC regs supercede MSA regs!

That explains why Plato et all in the BTCC get away with their disgraceful bevaviour (see another thread). They are not playing to our rules, but to their own. We knew that, but not that they had special exemptions to do so. NOT a good idea, IMHO.

John

[johnw]

Well, maybe not a bad idea either John, as it does at least differentiate the clowns from the rest of us.

My concern was always that we were all subject to the same rules, but they were implemented differently, thereby encouraging crap driving through the amateur divisions.

At least we can now point out that the BTCC is "contact condoned" whereas the rest of racing isn't.

[Al Weyman]

Wait till someone gets hurt bad then see the s*it hit the fan. I can't agree with this stance.

[johnw]

Oh I don't agree with it either Al, but the authorities seem too weak to take proper action, so at least this helps enable club racing to police itself more effectively.

[hogmany]

Originally Posted by JohnD

All,
I've just had my copy of Motorsport Now! (yawn), Rule Change Special. This promulgates changes to O 1.1.5 ("Reckless driving") and O 2.6.2 (To concentrate on bad behaviour out of the driving seat).

But the really interesting thing I got from reading these again was to find next to them:
Reg O 2.1 which specificly allows the BTCC "to vary the judicial procedures in respect of driving offences contrary to General Regs E 5.1.8 (A driver must drive at all times in a manner compatible with general safety......), O 1.1.5 ("Reckless or dangerous driving") and O 1.1.6 ("Careless driving").
and
Reg O 2.1.2 that BTCC regs supercede MSA regs!

That explains why Plato et all in the BTCC get away with their disgraceful bevaviour (see another thread). They are not playing to our rules, but to their own. We knew that, but not that they had special exemptions to do so. NOT a good idea, IMHO.

John

Maybe I'm wrong but has the Blue Book for sometime had a "regulation" which allowed the BTCC to modify the judical procedure? I was under the impression that this was introduced to "try out" the points system for driving offenses that was introduced a short while ago.