How can GP2 become more relevant, again?

[spider]

In the Sam Bird thread, a number of us are commenting on the credibility of the series.

For me there's a couple of reasons for this - one, is the promotion of the series - which in my opinion (and that of a few people who were involved with the Championship at its incarnation) has utterly slipped. Will Buxton and Bruno Michel were a superb team promoting the Championship at the start. In that area it's seemed to have become less impressive as a commercial proposition.

Also, there's an issue with the F1 teams really not being too excited about the series, with the 3.5 renault series being seen as a better alternative for the McLaren and Ferrari young guns.

The credibility of the series is damaged as the true talent doesn't really rise to the top - and that's clearly down to the machinery. When GP2 replaced the **** heap that was F3000, the leading talents were right at the front - as such, it was a credible option for the likes of Rosberg, Lewis, to use as a final stepping-stone.

With F1 teams struggling for revenue, and with testing now a big restriction, it seems to me there's an opportunity that's being missed.

Perhaps GP2 really should be run with 1/2 x year old F1 cars, with restrictive regulations/performance (revs) - ART for example, running an old Ferrari car. The test teams of the F1 team can supply support to the GP2 outfits, and then at least the F1 teams are more likely to be excited about trialing their drivers in the series.

This would lead to close relationships between F1/GP2 teams - that are already running their cars right in front of the F1 teams' garages for goodness sake.

The breeding-ground for F1 tagline would surely therefore be more relevant and the step into the main series would be far more natural. Surely it makes more sense than everyone running around in Dallara's...

[Go_For_Pole]

The only problems were:
1. High cost
2. Politics in getting a top seat

High cost is supposed to be drastically dealt with, as for what is a top seat let's say it was always a perception issue and that now it is not that much of a problem

[p-matt]

I can't agree that it's not relevant. Powerful cars, high deg tyres, pitstops, racing on the same tracks as F1 on the same weekend all make it the most relevant junior series to F1. I don't think it's true that the teams aren't convinced by it - Caterham have put their juniors in there, McLaren will do so next year. Red Bull don't because their juniors are doing sim work during GP weekends.

How exactly is the true talent not rising to the top? Leimer, Bird, Calado and Nasr have been the class of the field this year. It's not like most of these drivers have stacks of money to bring to teams either. I'd go as far to say that these men have done a comparable job to the likes of Magnussen and Vandoorne in what is a more complex series than 3.5. The only world class driver that didn't really break through this year is Frijns, and maybe it served to highlight that he isn't quite the finished article that you'd expect from a 3.5 champion. He's definitely not as complete as Magnussen.

While the idea of running old F1 cars sounds fun it would only create an even bigger gulf between those that bring budget and those who can't. And it would cause confusion with the casual fans and would be seen as diluting the F1 spectacle as a whole.

The issues they need to sort out are much simpler. They need to tighten up the tyre rules to stop drivers sacrificing Sunday for the win on Saturday. Mandating that drivers run both types of tyre on Saturday would do that, and would still leave some strategic options for the teams for the race as well (whether to prime - option or option - prime).

Cost is an issue and something they are trying to do something about. They are reusing this specification of the car for this cycle. Hopefully they can get Dallara down on price a bit for the spec parts that they've been charging through the nose for. They need to look at the calendar as well because they don't need to do the flyaway races in Asia. There are enough European tracks on the F1 calendar next season to do a full GP2 championship. It's also a great message for GP2 that Russian Time won the teams championship with two paid drivers that are in there on talent rather than cash. Hopefully with the cost cutting measures in place and the example set by Russian Time, other teams will follow suit.

They also need to do something with the reverse grid race too, but that's a well trodden path.

[Formulahistory]

I think the problem is to be searched in Formula One. There are a very limites number of cars: Only 22, and there are also no changes during the year, so with just 22 drivers for one year almost no young driver has to chance to step up - only if they have money. In 1989 there were 39 cars entered for one Grand Prix and the teams often changed their drivers.

And the second problem are the high costs in F1 with the most teams looking for drivers like Chilton. Okay, we had pay drivers before, but now the dimenson of money who is brought in by drivers are enormous.

[ensign14]

It's too contrived. I lost track of the points race months back, with bonuses for poles and semi-reversed grids with fewer on offer. Go back to one race, make it an hour long, and let's see the cream really rise.

And if sportscars kick off properly (let's make Audi &c sell at least 4 cars to privateers) there will be a place for GP2ers who are clearly not going to F1 but can't find anything else to race.

[bella]

Originally Posted by p-matt

It's also a great message for GP2 that Russian Time won the teams championship with two paid drivers that are in there on talent rather than cash. Hopefully with the cost cutting measures in place and the example set by Russian Time, other teams will follow suit.

i agree. perhaps if there was a decent financial incentive to do so then the frankly huge amount of capital the investors put in to make that happen would make it more viable for others.

"cost cutting" in reality is just going to mean that budgets stay static. i look forward to seeing how they plan to get the cars and teams to russia without costing an arm and a leg. almost literally. sochi is a pain in the butt to get to, too, and visas aren't inexpensive. it all has to get clawed back somehow.

one simple thing would change all this. decent prize money, delivered in the week after the race. that would make it easier for the talented but underfunded drivers to continue, as long as they could produce the results.

[ivanalesi]

I doubt they'll do anything meaningful. The approach of the organizers has always been to squeeze money out of the teams, which in turn squeeze money out of the drivers. We may be seeing problems, but they might be very happy with their bank balance.
Otherwise for the teams getting to Sochi ain't that hard. You go to Moscow and take the plane to Sochi. The trucks go to Turkey & take the ferry to Sochi. Hundreds of lorries go from Turkey/Greece/Bulgaria/Romania to Russia every day. You only have to prepare your documents. It won't be expensive, but I have the feeling the organizers will find a way to make it extremely expensive.

[bella]

it's expensive from a time point of view as well as a money one. from the wsr experience to moscow at the other end of russia, the trucks meet at lubeck then travel in convoy, spend a considerable amount of time waiting at the border, and use the services of an armed guard whilst on their way to the circuit. it takes something like a week to do (i think the uk boys were on the road for almost 10 days either way), though admittedly it's an entirely different route.

looking at the calendar, singapore is 2 weeks before which would suggest it might be a bit tight to air freight the stuff back from there, bung it in the truck and send it on its way again.

as for flying staff out, i guess there's going to be some creative routing from travel agents, many of which will cost an arm and a leg given that it's at the same time as the f1 as per usual. the problem lies in the lack of alternative routings for keeping costs low. for example, you can fly to moscow via most european capital cities so there is reasonable competition. sochi is much more challenging to vary without including 2 or more changes. how about via prague with yakutia airlines, anybody?

it just all adds up. the more races you have in a calendar where stuff adds up, the sillier and less transparent for drivers it gets. how can they be sure they're getting a good deal?

[Formulahistory]

And I would love to see the death of the reverse grid.

[bella]

does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the reverse grid?

i mean, if you just take the finishing order as the grid isn't that bound to get shaken up by the tyre choices?

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by bella

and use the services of an armed guard whilst on their way to the circuit. it takes something like a week to do (i think the uk boys were on the road for almost 10 days either way), though admittedly it's an entirely different route.

Sounds a bit extreme, especially the armed guard. You just go to Trabzon in Turkey and take a ferry to Sochi. May be there's some ferry/ship from Romania or Bulgaria to Sochi, which will avoid going through Turkish customs. It's a state organized race unlike the WSbR race. In any case it shouldn't cost anywhere near to what I've heard teams were charged for other far away races and Aeroflot aren't famous for both quality and expensive tickets

[bella]

not really - bearing in mind they're driving really really shiny expensive trucks, not just your average beaten up curtain-sided tractor with 1,000,000km on the clock. i'm sure there's someone on here who knows more than i do, but i'm 90% certain there has been occasion for the escort to look threatening. even with a massive convoy (was the wsr one 40+?). iirc when the f3 guys went to romania there were a few incidents.

you have to remember as well that motorsport teams are either entirely reckless with driving regs (the private use loophole is very very tenuous, especially if your copper knows what the score is), or very very strict about them (quite right too). so that lengthens the journey time. especially if they have to be careful where they park up for the night. i guess if there's a ferry direct to sochi that'll take a lot of the driving in russia out of the equation though.

that's the bit that could push it towards being an air freight event - even getting to turkey takes a good while. isn't it another ferry from italy as well?

aeroflot were as expensive as british airways (who run a long haul product as opposed to aeroflot's short haul one) from london for moscow, so they're not as cheap as you think

[p-matt]

I've always wondered if the reverse grid would be acceptable if they did the sprint race on a Saturday and the feature race on Sunday with the pitstop. It would give a chance for the quick guys in quali to battle through traffic on the Sunday with the help of pitstop strategy. Obviously no points for pole or fastest laps. And I think they could legitimately give equal points for both races this way

[kipper]

Originally Posted by bella

that's the bit that could push it towards being an air freight event - even getting to turkey takes a good while. isn't it another ferry from italy as well?

From memory, the F1 teams went by boat from Italy to Turkey to avoid having to drive through the Balkans for safety reasons.

[Go_For_Pole]

Not for safety reasons, jeez crossing Greece is hardly dangerous, it was just the customs that they wanted to avoid

[ivanalesi]

Well, we've had different experiences Bella. But as an example I can tell you that Mercedes are importing their cars to Turkey by trucks and the trucks produced in Turkey go to EU again by trucks, this is every day. Surely criminals would be more interested in S-Class Mercs than a taken apart unknown to them single-seater.

[bella]

i think the difference is that it's the southern end of europe as opposed to the northern end perhaps. i still think they'll end up air freighting everything out there. they've already built the team buildings for f1, haven't they?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

Not for safety reasons, jeez crossing Greece is hardly dangerous, it was just the customs that they wanted to avoid

I was basing my post on articles such as this: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20312.html. Obviously, it is now somewhat dated.

[Go_For_Pole]

... and unfounded

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by bella

i think the difference is that it's the southern end of europe as opposed to the northern end perhaps. i still think they'll end up air freighting everything out there. they've already built the team buildings for f1, haven't they?

Extremely doubtful, I think they're just using preconceptions to scare people and ask for more money. True, sometimes Eastern EU people might be not exactly polite with customers and Western people will think they're aggressive towards them, but it's not the case, they're unhappy with their job and will never ever think about hurting you. This whole ferry trip is the same. There are 1000s of lorries crossing these borders every day without a problem, but only the teams trucks will attract criminals!? I bet the ferry was also excessively expensive
It's just a way to squeeze more money out of the teams. They won't think about how to promote the series better, how to help or push the teams to search for sponsors... the usual simplistic leadership.

[Mekola]

Then a bad leadership IMHO. Organizers should think in a mood teams and drivers could be benefitted.

[bella]

well, i know things occured, so...

mekola, there's not a race organiser around (except possibly our very own 360mc on tenths ) that won't jack the prices up on *anything* to make a bit of profit or to make ends meet. it's a given. it would be excellent if they all just sat down and stopped doing it, but the organisers themselves have huge, bloated workforces and headquarters to pay for as much as the teams do.

i would dearly love to see a breakdown of what a gp2 team has to pay out as a baseline cost for competing, not including damage and staffing costs.

[bella]

another thought.

if gp2 is really a ladder to f1, and both the f1 teams and event organisers (and tyre sponsors) want it to appear that way, then surely there should be more, if not all teams run either in house by f1 teams or as franchises?

[chunterer]

Bit like the Mclaren junior team, supernova/Williams and Renault (whoever ran it) in 3000 in the late 90's?

[bella]

or caterham and their gp2 team now yeah, it'd be nice if it was a bit more than just a simple rebadging affair and the f1 boys actively put in the effort. it'd make the scrutineers job a lot more interesting, that's for sure

or how about a maximum budget?