Is Vettel's career over?

[Adam43]

This thread is about Vettel. Posts removed.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by hoffman66

For me, another multiple champion with numerous questions, only ever won seriously in a car with an obvious advantage, never really got on at all with the turbo cars and like his best mate, a driver who employed dubious tactics at times?

Would he by in my, anybodys top 5? No

Second part I agree with.

However his titles were won on the whole with a less dominant car than the current Mercedes.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Surprised people are saying Ferrari need someone with a safe pair of hands, or someone to work with Leclerc.

Teams that should be winning titles should not be hiring "safe pairs of hands". You need people who will actually go and win titles.

Leclerc is looking like a future star - but we've had a lot of future stars who never became stars. Ferrari need someone who will properly drag them into titles. Alonso and Vettel both failed. Arguably Kimi only got his title due to a McLaren meltdown of epic proportions. We're back to pre-Schumacher Ferrari. As good as Leclerc is looking, he is not yet ready to do that alone. Bringing in someone who works well with him doesn't really make a huge amount of sense to me.

Nailed it.

Which is why Sainz or Ricciardo are no-brainers.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I will miss him if he goes. He is a nice and interesting guy on the whole. But he has been seriously flattered by that 2010-2013 period. He was never on the level of Alonso or Hamilton and probably not even Jenson Button or Nico Rosberg. We will look back at his career and see four world titles but we will also see him running scared from two fights within the teams he liked to think were all his.

We will also reflect on the odd amazing drive. On his day he could actually set the benchmark, but there are numerous drivers you could say that about who fizzled out in a similar manner.

Your other points are sound but I wholeheartedly disagree with these points.

Chumps don't win four titles.

2010 he beat a strong McLaren pair, Alonso and Webber at the top of his game.

2011 and 2013 were walks in the park but 2012 the field was strong and he came from a long way back to beat Alonso in incredible form in the final race.

"Beating Hamilton in the same team" as a measurement doesn't just fire you ahead of a four-time champion.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Nailed it.

Which is why Sainz or Ricciardo are no-brainers.

I;m not sure about Sainz but I've never thought of Ricciardo as a safe pair of hands, especially with those late breaking manoeuvres.

I know you didn't suggest it but I don't see why a safe pair of hands is such a bad thing? That's what Mercedes have with Bottas. If Ferrari can get someone to fulfill a similar role to Bottas, then I think that could help turn their fortunes around.

[Taxi645]

I think many people underestimate Vettel's ability to read the race, act accordingly and manage his tyres.

He IS a very good driver. He just has too much issues when the car's handling or any situation doesn't go his way.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I;m not sure about Sainz but I've never thought of Ricciardo as a safe pair of hands, especially with those late breaking manoeuvres.

I know you didn't suggest it but I don't see why a safe pair of hands is such a bad thing? That's what Mercedes have with Bottas. If Ferrari can get someone to fulfill a similar role to Bottas, then I think that could help turn their fortunes around.

I guess it's because Bottas is perceived as an unsexy choice.

Jenson Button would be the perfect description of a 'safe pair of hands', I'd guess. Depends on how someone would define it.

I don't think Ricciardo is not a safe pair of hands. He doesn't really crash out of many races or lose many points or positions due to his moves.

I think the point from the "safe pair of hands" post was; if there's a win or podium to be taken, would someone like Ricciardo or Sainz go for the move, or would they play it safe and bank the safe points? Bottas has shown on a few occasions to be the latter.

[Armco Bender]

He's got all the money in the world,nothing really left to prove in F1.....why not just ride off into the sunset and retire?.

[Casper]

I wonder what would happen if the season spills over to next year and drivers' contracts end this calender year and Vettel would be an example of that. It is one good reason for the season not to spill over I guess.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

He's got all the money in the world,nothing really left to prove in F1.....why not just ride off into the sunset and retire?.

This.

[Akrapovic]

Stats aren't everything, but someone sent me this on WhatsApp this morning.

I think we often look back at Fernando and remember the highlights and forget the downsides. Where as with Vettel we're now used to talking about the negatives. The stats are very very similar. Both achieved basically the same thing at Ferrari.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Surprised people are saying Ferrari need someone with a safe pair of hands, or someone to work with Leclerc.
...
As good as Leclerc is looking, he is not yet ready to do that alone. Bringing in someone who works well with him doesn't really make a huge amount of sense to me.

your last two sentences seem to contradict, imo. if he's not ready then surely someone who doesn't provide a conflict point - or at least someone who easily resolves conflict due to not being an idiot - is a good decision? key word is "team" - ferrari already have a champion quality driver in leclerc.

i'm not sure how good he is (never met anyone who's worked with him), but giovinazzi is theoretically a choice too.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bella

your last two sentences seem to contradict, imo. if he's not ready then surely someone who doesn't provide a conflict point - or at least someone who easily resolves conflict due to not being an idiot - is a good decision? key word is "team" - ferrari already have a champion quality driver in leclerc.

i'm not sure how good he is (never met anyone who's worked with him), but giovinazzi is theoretically a choice too.

I don't think they do contradict each other.

Leclerc is not yet a superstar. Why should you choose your next driver based on working together with someone who might one day be that good? This seems like a silly compromise. Hire someone who gets the job done, regardless of getting on with someone.

Mercedes can choose drivers who work well with Lewis because they know Lewis will get the job done. There is no proof that Leclerc can get the job done yet.

Aside from that, Ferrari have had solid 1-2 positions with Alonso and still failed to get the job done. When they're in Mercedes position, then they can start playing politics and choosing drivers who suit each other. But when you're not winning, you should choose the driver most likely to deliver you a title - regardless of the relationship they will have with Leclerc.

[Greem]

I might be nit-picking a bit here but could we separate out the "who replaces Vettel" and "what Ferrari do next" posts into the Ferrari thread and keep this specifically for Vettel?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm not sure how good he is (never met anyone who's worked with him), but giovinazzi is theoretically a choice too.

Giovinazzi has already been a choice - they took LeClerc instead. So we can safely assume that Ferrari don't rate Giovinazzi as highly as they do LeClerc. Given also that we know Giovinazzi is worse than Kimi then he really looks an unlikely candidate for the seat.

LeClerc / Ricciardo
LeClerc / Sainz
LeClerc / Hulkenburg
LeClerc / Hamilton
LeClerc / Perez
LeClerc / Giovinazzi

One of those looks a lot weaker than the others (and in fact you could plug most drivers on the grid into that equation and it'd still be true - Latifi being an obvious exception).

[bjohnsonsmith]

It looks like Sainz has the nod.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...errari-in-2021

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Stats aren't everything, but someone sent me this on WhatsApp this morning.

I think we often look back at Fernando and remember the highlights and forget the downsides. Where as with Vettel we're now used to talking about the negatives. The stats are very very similar. Both achieved basically the same thing at Ferrari.

True but boy oh boy were those 2012 and 2014 Ferraris poor.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Skam85

True but boy oh boy were those 2012 and 2014 Ferraris poor.

I'm not too sure about the 2012 car. Alonso was runner up, just three points behind Vettel and Ferrari finished second in the WCC, 60 points behind RBR. However, with the 2014 car it was a completely different story. Alonso only had two podiums and finished 6th in the WDC and Ferrari finished 4th in the WCC.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Stats aren't everything, but someone sent me this on WhatsApp this morning.

I think we often look back at Fernando and remember the highlights and forget the downsides. Where as with Vettel we're now used to talking about the negatives. The stats are very very similar. Both achieved basically the same thing at Ferrari.

Crikey they are similar. Apart from the last bit. I’d like phrase this more as Alonso did really well than Vettel did poorly, have the same average WDC position of 3.2, yet the average WCC was 3 for Alonso during his time and 2.2 for Vettel. Vettel finished about where you would expect the lead driver to be, Alonso should have averaged around 5th.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not too sure about the 2012 car. Alonso was runner up, just three points behind Vettel and Ferrari finished second in the WCC, 60 points behind RBR. However, with the 2014 car it was a completely different story. Alonso only had two podiums and finished 6th in the WDC and Ferrari finished 4th in the WCC.

True. But 2012 was down to Alonso's brilliance more than the car. Shown by 278-122 points vs Massa.

That season was very close with lots of teams up there at different points of the season. Alonso was desperately unlucky to not win the title, but the fact he was up there in what was probably the fourth quickest car puts him ahead of Vettel in Ferrari stature for mine.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not too sure about the 2012 car. Alonso was runner up, just three points behind Vettel and Ferrari finished second in the WCC, 60 points behind RBR. However, with the 2014 car it was a completely different story. Alonso only had two podiums and finished 6th in the WDC and Ferrari finished 4th in the WCC.

The 2012 car started out really very poorly, but it did improve. They were perhaps fortunate that the Pirelli tyre situation neutered the advantage of others significantly but it was still not in the ballpark initially.

It wasn't as good as the McLaren and certainly not the Red Bull. The McLaren reliability and also bad luck flattered the red points total somewhat, I think Hamilton alone lost around 100 points due to breakdowns and Maldonado/Hulkenberg/Grosjean harpooning him.

2014 was an undisputed dog.

Vettel, you can genuinely argue, had the car to do the job in 2017 and almost certainly in 2018. So it is not at all flattering to compare the Ferrari careers of the two imo. Alonso was not flawless, he made critical errors in 2010 and 2012, but he had far less room to make them, they were smaller and he obviously made far less of them overall.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The 2012 car started out really very poorly, but it did improve. They were perhaps fortunate that the Pirelli tyre situation neutered the advantage of others significantly but it was still not in the ballpark initially.

It wasn't as good as the McLaren and certainly not the Red Bull. The McLaren reliability and also bad luck flattered the red points total somewhat, I think Hamilton alone lost around 100 points due to breakdowns and Maldonado/Hulkenberg/Grosjean harpooning him.

2014 was an undisputed dog.

Vettel, you can genuinely argue, had the car to do the job in 2017 and almost certainly in 2018. So it is not at all flattering to compare the Ferrari careers of the two imo. Alonso was not flawless, he made critical errors in 2010 and 2012, but he had far less room to make them, they were smaller and he obviously made far less of them overall.

I have always thought that Ferrari were driven by fan and media influences when they should have been ignoring them and doing a technically good job instead. The only period this did not occur was when the principles of the team were not Italian and the outsiders were simply ignored and then they won consistently.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

True. But 2012 was down to Alonso's brilliance more than the car. Shown by 278-122 points vs Massa.

That season was very close with lots of teams up there at different points of the season. Alonso was desperately unlucky to not win the title, but the fact he was up there in what was probably the fourth quickest car puts him ahead of Vettel in Ferrari stature for mine.

I agree on Alonsos brilliance, but I don't agree he was unlucky 2012.

Alonso is an incredible driver, but there are a couple of times he has bottled it and 2012 was one of them. Vettel was driving a crippled car from the back of the grid. Meanwhile Alonso was midfield, and had to be gifted a position from Massa. He was just not on the ball - he simply wan't good enough on the day it mattered.

Not saying he did a worse job than Vettel in Ferrari. Not at all - I actually think Alonso did a better job than Vettel. But Vettel hasn't been as bad as what we remember.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Alonso is an incredible driver, but there are a couple of times he has bottled it and 2012 was one of them. Vettel was driving a crippled car from the back of the grid. Meanwhile Alonso was midfield, and had to be gifted a position from Massa. He was just not on the ball - he simply wan't good enough on the day it mattered.

Did he? I don't recall that at all.

In the last 1/4 of the season the Ferrari was not good enough and FA was arguably overdriving to compensate and possibly looking for strategy options that weren't there.

Thd RB was considerably better by then.

Plus Vettel had a day of days coming back through in a car that ought to have retired. So he was fortunate in a collosal way.

Funnily enough Alonso did something very similar in Baku 2 years ago albeit for a 7th place but opined it might well have been the best drive of his career. That's saying somwthing considering Valencia '12, Hungary '03 and a couple of other belters.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The 2012 car started out really very poorly, but it did improve. They were perhaps fortunate that the Pirelli tyre situation neutered the advantage of others significantly but it was still not in the ballpark initially.

It wasn't as good as the McLaren and certainly not the Red Bull. The McLaren reliability and also bad luck flattered the red points total somewhat, I think Hamilton alone lost around 100 points due to breakdowns and Maldonado/Hulkenberg/Grosjean harpooning him.

2014 was an undisputed dog.

I suppose it wasn't brilliant, though Alonso got the win in Malaysia and a 2nd and 3rd in Spain and Monaco. However, with Massa it was pretty lacklustre. The nearest he got to the podium in the first half of the season was fourth at Silverstone.

In the second half there was an overall improvement but it was a bit of a mixed bag. Massa never finished below 9th and although Alonso's last win was in Germany at the end of the first half of the season, in the second half he got seven podiums, three of which were 2nd places, though he also had a couple of retirements.

2014 was a dog. Ferrari finished 4th in the WCC.