[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

The whole idea of RBPT seems a bit weird when looked at in terms of the future. To take on a partner such as Honda or Porsche does not give RB autonomy if the partnership goes south and who pays who for 50% of the IP that went into it. In all likelihood the partner is being brought in because RBTP does not have the ability to design and develop a new PU and in the event of a divorce would take a lot more than 50% with them leaving RB no better off. In the end a partnership of the type being proposed by RBTP with Porsche does not give RB any guarantee of independence over the long term and it seems a strange way of going about producing a PU. Mercedes on the other hand did it in house which is a totally different thing altogether.

I think if RBPT goes into it with a strategy of structuring things to prevent what you say it can work. The build up facilities, they gain knowledge, they likely create dual ownership (or licensing) of IP, they setup ability to be first in line to purchase if partner wants to exit. Then if the partner exits, they may not be as strong as with the partner, but they are not going backwards to where they are now either. They should have moved significantly forward. And yes, if the partner wants to exit, Red Bull would need to cough up the money or find a new partner to bring in under a similar agreement.

I think if RBR could be fully independent now, they would do it vs. trying to find a partner. Or, they are capable, but by brining in a partner helps spread the cost of fully getting up to speed. Then it allows both sides to benefit. RBPT grows, etc. (outlined above) and the partner gets the marketing and other benefits they are looking for.

Richard

[wolfhound]

It looks like it was Red Bull who got cold feet over the Porsche deal. They now have the time and resources to develop their own power units for 2026 according to the article linked below. They also have plenty of time to find another partner to badge their power units if they need to.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/wh...ater/10364612/


I wonder what Porsche will do now, there are a number of teams they could partner with if they so wish or will they go to there old stomping ground of the WEC.

[gert]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

or will they go to there old stomping ground of the WEC.

They already have commited to the WEC and IMSA for the next few years.
They may stay around there a bit longer than anticipated.


As a Porsche Fan, I hope the Red Bull deal is off.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

20 million euros for two cars over a full FIA WEC season


(F1 is $140 million per team)

Running costs - doesn't include car design, development, updates. Driver fees . Not suggesting its $140,000 but I bet is was North of 80. Also cost cap doesn't include engine design / development as far as I can see

[S griffin]

With their sister brand Audi entering F1, Porsche probably see less reason for entering. So there’s every chance it won’t happen now. But I was never going to believe until it was actually confirmed

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

It looks like it was Red Bull who got cold feet over the Porsche deal. They now have the time and resources to develop their own power units for 2026 according to the article linked below. They also have plenty of time to find another partner to badge their power units if they need to.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/wh...ater/10364612/


I wonder what Porsche will do now, there are a number of teams they could partner with if they so wish or will they go to there old stomping ground of the WEC.

I wonder why they wanted Porsche as a partner if what you say is the case. They (RBT) have systematically over a period of time stripped personnel out of their rivals in a cut throat manner to put together a power train division and then admit by their attempt to entice Porsche that they did not have the ability to go all the way to build their own PU. What they did do is remove major personnel from those teams (mainly Mercedes) and even if Toto was asked I bet he would not admit RB had caused them problems. I wonder how much RB offered Cowell to entice him though it was obviously not enough. There is always two effects when major talent goes from one team to another, gain the talent and deprive the team who they worked for. Ricciardo was a prime example of that when he went to Renault though that was more revenge after RB rightfully publicly criticised Renault but let's not go there.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Casper

TMercedes on the other hand did it in house which is a totally different thing altogether.

Hrm... Not quite. They bought into Ilmor by buying out General Motors, then gradually increased their holding until they were the sole owners. For the F1 engine side of things they kept everything - premises at Brixworth, the staff, the intellectual property, the contracts - and then expanded that operation massively.

So yes; the Merc F1 engines were developed in-house, but it's not quite as simple as it looks. That said, in F1, is *anything* as simple as it looks?

[gert]

Originally Posted by S griffin

With their sister brand Audi entering F1, Porsche probably see less reason for entering.

That has nothing to do with it.
It was known for a long time both would ebter independently from eachother.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Greem

Hrm... Not quite. They bought into Ilmor by buying out General Motors, then gradually increased their holding until they were the sole owners. For the F1 engine side of things they kept everything - premises at Brixworth, the staff, the intellectual property, the contracts - and then expanded that operation massively.

So yes; the Merc F1 engines were developed in-house, but it's not quite as simple as it looks. That said, in F1, is *anything* as simple as it looks?

Read the book about Illmore developing the pushrod V8 for Indy, an absolutely fascinating read. Yes, there was a progression on Mercedes bringing everything in house but they did it so they had no dependence on anyone unlike RBPT which could be termed a work in progress and nowhere near to developing a PU for '26 without major technical support in the form of a partner and finding one who wants to play on RB's terms and has the technical resources is going to bet difficult.

The ICE part is most probably not a major hurdle but the increasingly developing electrical side sure is and not many companies have the experience besides Porsche. My prediction is that RB will use any means possible to strong arm Honda into a deal. It maybe that RBPT was put together after Porsche began to show interest and if that was the case and the deal has now fallen over RB might have a problem.

The usual disciaimer: Read the above with a large amount of salt ready

[peebee2]

You seem to have a much higher opinion of Porsche capabilities compared to most!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Casper

Read the book about Illmore developing the pushrod V8 for Indy, an absolutely fascinating read.

Wonderful piece of kit. I saw one in Brixworth. In a random display case no where in particular and it was only mentioned in passing. But when I got giddy about it it was clear it had a special place.

This was years back, still the V8 era. Couple of years to go if I recall, in the period where a lot development was frozen. However they still had a V6 to show, and I guess very different and a few iterations before the race debut version. They stole a march on the others because they were better prepared. Developing even before everything in the rules were final.

The changes in 2026 aren’t as dramatic, but aren’t insignificant so whoever ends up supplying the new PUs needs to be on it soon.

Not making out I know anything. Just whenever the push rod engine is mentioned it always reminds me of two examples of them getting a technical advantage.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You seem to have a much higher opinion of Porsche capabilities compared to most!

Please feel free to tell us your opinion of Porsche. To put it another way are you saying that RB would be foolish to want Porsche as a partner in RBPT? You may well be right but your reasoning would be interesting to me at least.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Casper

Please feel free to tell us your opinion of Porsche. To put it another way are you saying that RB would be foolish to want Porsche as a partner in RBPT? You may well be right but your reasoning would be interesting to me at least.

No I wouldn't say that, more that I think Porsche need RB more than vice versa.

I doubt Porsche would really go it alone, and that would certainly conflict with their historical style.

RB could easily retain Honda or even do a deal with anyone who wants to badge the engine for a significant budget contribution.

[gert]

Originally Posted by peebee2

RB could easily retain Honda or even do a deal with anyone who wants to badge the engine for a significant budget contribution.

(emphasis mine)

I think that's the problem. Porsche seems not to be interested if their only role is to pay and put their name on the engine and somewhere on the car.

(And probably be blamed by H. Marko if they don't win; And if they do it's all Red Bull that get the credits -- see Renault)

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by gert

(emphasis mine)

I think that's the problem. Porsche seems not to be interested if their only role is to pay and put their name on the engine and somewhere on the car.

(And probably be blamed by H. Marko if they don't win; And if they do it's all Red Bull that get the credits -- see Renault)

I guess it’s up to them if they want to compete to win or just take part. I’m sure partnering with RBPT should be the most cost-effective route to success by some margin.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I guess it’s up to them if they want to compete to win or just take part. I’m sure partnering with RBPT should be the most cost-effective route to success by some margin.

It would be interesting to see who made the first move to form some sort of partnership as there have been some suggestions that RB have been trying to get VW interested in a deal since the Renault days and it was always rejected because of animosity between some people in both groups. It has also been suggested that the Porsche/RBPT talks have only advanced since the leadership of VW has changed so there could be some truth in the stories. That two dominant companies within their respective fields could not come to an agreement should surprise no one especially when one is supposed to be subject an upcoming IPO. My take is RB need a company of Porsche or Honda's capability to make RBTP successful.

[wolfhound]

Porsche have confirmed the proposed partnership with Red Bull as talks have been called off.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/po...deal/10365986/

[S griffin]

Wonder which side the break down happened? Either way, I'm not surprised. The talks didn't progress as much as early signs would have suggested. Not disappointed, as I wasn't prepared to believe it till it happened

[gert]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Wonder which side the break down happened? Either way, I'm not surprised. The talks didn't progress as much as early signs would have suggested. Not disappointed, as I wasn't prepared to believe it till it happened

As explained earlier, Red Bull did no longer wanted it as a 50-50 partnership as originally planned, and the deal on the table now was for Porsche to co-fund the RBPT engine and have its name on the car.

I'm glad that deal doesn't go ahead.

[VIVA GT]

I wonder if this is an indication that Honda is having a(nother) about-turn with it's plans to withdraw from F1 and they'll carry as a partner with Red Bull?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I wonder if this is an indication that Honda is having a(nother) about-turn with it's plans to withdraw from F1 and they'll carry as a partner with Red Bull?

Seeing as RBR have spent the last 12 months building their own engine department and employing loads of people on that side of things, it seems that if Honda do another Zig-Zag it would be too late for them to carry on with RBR.

[S griffin]

I would be surprised if any engine manufacturer will want to work with RBR.

[gert]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I would be surprised if any engine manufacturer will want to work with RBR.

Probably someone who just wants name recognition and is prepared to just fund it wuithout having any say on the technical matters or running of the team?

I don't remeber where but I saw Hyundai's name pop up.

All you need to do is pay and you will get your name on the engien, and on the rear wing.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by gert

Probably someone who just wants name recognition and is prepared to just fund it wuithout having any say on the technical matters or running of the team?

I don't remeber where but I saw Hyundai's name pop up.

All you need to do is pay and you will get your name on the engien, and on the rear wing.

Yep I think that's exactly what RB want. Heaven forbid any partner wants to lessen Marko and Horners control!

[Casper]

Horner playing media games again and trying to be his own spin doctor

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ho...ject/10366723/

And I am trying to put this bit into English or at least the English I understand

He also indicated that the Porsche deal collapsed in part because of the limited amount of technical help that the manufacturer would provide, given the knowledge of the staff it had already recruited.

He just about admits they need an OEM as a partner though he says they don't, spin away Christian. He also admits the project has passed the point of no return and has to continue. The whole article is full of double speak but Marko reckons that the OEM starters are already on the phone and lining up for the job.

To sum up RBPT needs more technical help but does not need an OEM though they are lining up at the gate and banging on the front door.