[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2022: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 16 of 22

[gert]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

He was told twice by the team to pass it and didn't claiming it wasn't green, there were a couple radio messages and mentioned a couple times in the coverage

Not on the coverage I was watching (RTBF)

Nevertheless I don't see what good it would have done.

Even if Russell would have passed it, then what? How would that have brought the SC any closer to the leader?

[tux]

Originally Posted by Greem

The FIA are absolutely terrified of people being on track while the track is live. I'm beginning to ponder whether their insurers are driving this apparent fear.

I don't know how far the telehandler had to drive to get to Danny Ric's car, but that could have been plucked back into the gap at the exit of the previous corner in less than one lap under local yellows or a VSC at the very worst.

A disappointing end to a disappointing race.

I think you are right Greem, just look how many red flags we have these days.

[NaBUru38]

A car (Williams?) near crashed the support truck that was moving Ricciardo's car. I can't believe that nobody is talking about that.


https://twitter.com/sempre_negativ_/...80818919292928

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

A car (Williams?) near crashed the support truck that was moving Ricciardo's car. I can't believe that nobody is talking about that.


https://twitter.com/sempre_negativ_/...80818919292928

Especially given the directions moving. I can see a bit more leeway with both moving forward but that picker was moving against traffic. The fact there was nothing between the wheels and oncoming is surprising. No track blocker or anything forcing drivers left was crazy, even Croft thought they would have to hold station while the cars passed but did not.

I get why and I understand the yellows or reds for track entry given but I'm also used to it. No US track would have been anything other than SC for track entry and had at a truck blocking the right of the track while moving the car

[TrapezeArtist]

Another shambolic safety car / race director cock-up. At least this time the results were a fair reflection of the way the race was going, unlike Abby Dabby.

It really is time to tear up the whole safety car programme and start again on finding a way of neutralising a race in a way that is both safe and fair. Even if the race had re-started for one or two laps, Verstappen would have found his hard-earned 17 second lead taken away from him through no fault of his won and no merit on the part of his competitors. In this respect, the application of the safety car at any time goes counter to the ethos of a sport.

[P38 in workshop]

I couldn't manage to keep a straight face when I read that Ferrari have criticised the FIA and suggested that they ought to have dome a better job.Maybe their spokesman should get a mirror installed somewhere handy.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

It really is time to tear up the whole safety car programme and start again on finding a way of neutralising a race in a way that is both safe and fair.

Although, if the situation arises where it can only be one it should be the latter.

You do the safe thing and then solve for fairness later.

Even if the race had re-started for one or two laps, Verstappen would have found his hard-earned 17 second lead taken away from him through no fault of his won and no merit on the part of his competitors. In this respect, the application of the safety car at any time goes counter to the ethos of a sport.

Yes, but it goes along with the ethos of minimizing the chance of injury and loss of life.

Improve the fairness. Yes. Let’s not forget the primary reason for cautions, SC and red flags.

I am talking very generally as I have not seen the incident in question

I’m sure you agree, but just in case you were weighting the two things equally

[Tourer]

Don't know what happened with that SC period but seemed to take a very long time for the car to come out and then pick up the wrong driver (although the cars out of position were eventually waved through and the leader was picked up - that happens).

I thought Croft's fascination in commentary about red-flagging the race instead made no sense at all - apart from anything else, a red flag that late in a race generally means finish of the race (although that may have changed, I'll admit to being rusty on that one).

The SC definitely needed to come out but the whole process seemed slow, hesitant, moribund - maybe the coverage made it look worse? Also slow to get the SC off track at the end but then none of us know what was happening in race control.

Ultimately, the SC is not a perfect animal in all respects and will continue to be that way - personally I had no problem with Abu Dhabi last year and also none with how this GP finished.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Although, if the situation arises where it can only be one it should be the latter.

You do the safe thing and then solve for fairness later.

Yes, but it goes along with the ethos of minimizing the chance of injury and loss of life.

Improve the fairness. Yes. Let’s not forget the primary reason for cautions, SC and red flags.

I am talking very generally as I have not seen the incident in question

I’m sure you agree, but just in case you were weighting the two things equally

The most simple thing and something that should be relatively easy to invoke and is reasonably fair is a virtual safety car.
Full course yellow, all competition stops until the vehicles/people are safe and incident is recovered.
Then race again.
The race can formally begin when the leading vehicle crosses the start finish line.

[GregUK]

Using a VSC does, at least, properly neutralise the race. If the tyres lose temp and pressure it should be well within the driver's skillset to deal with it.

Save the SC for the most serious of situation and get rid of the 'wave by' rule.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by tux

You can talk about Ferrari making poor decisions on strategy most weeks but im not sure it matters anymore. Red Bull are dominant. Shame because the early races of the season were genuinely very exciting but now Verstappen just dominates.

This. For the rest of the season we (and the other drivers) are just looking for the scraps that fall from Max's plate.

[S griffin]

What a shame after some great racing, it ends disappointingly under the SC, thanks to some serious mismanagement from race control. They should have let Russell and the others past earlier. And the sooner we get rid of the idiotic SC free pass rule the better.

However Ferrari once again threw the race away with that second pitstop when they were looking good for a win. They might as well as hand Max the championship trophy now. Good drive by Russell for 3rd

Great drive by Danny, finally back on form. Shame what happened at the end. And well done de Vries, solid drive to earn two points in his first race. A candidate for a full time ride in 2023

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by S griffin

What a shame after some great racing, it ends disappointingly under the SC, thanks to some serious mismanagement from race control. They should have let Russell and the others past earlier. And the sooner we get rid of the idiotic SC free pass rule the better.

However Ferrari once again threw the race away with that second pitstop when they were looking good for a win. They might as well as hand Max the championship trophy now. Good drive by Russell for 3rd

Great drive by Danny, finally back on form. Shame what happened at the end. And well done de Vries, solid drive to earn two points in his first race. A candidate for a full time ride in 2023

I totally agree with your last two points, but disagree on the one before that. I think Ferrari knew they would not win this one. It is Italy and you want to win, yeah, but they knew it would look worse if they fell flat and fumbled again, so they took a more conservative route and took what points were on offer. RBR is just too fast for them, and they know it.

[nobster]

Originally Posted by S griffin

However Ferrari once again threw the race away with that second pitstop when they were looking good for a win. They might as well as hand Max the championship trophy now. Good drive by Russell for 3rd

They were never on for the win.....!
Max had been faster and more consistent on all the tyres they tried out.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by GregUK

Using a VSC does, at least, properly neutralise the race. If the tyres lose temp and pressure it should be well within the driver's skillset to deal with it.

Save the SC for the most serious of situation and get rid of the 'wave by' rule.

Give or take a bit, that's my feeling too.

I think the VSC system could be made a bit more sophisticated in order to enable it to cover more serious incidents. I'm thinking the addition of an overall speed limit (probably very low) where the situation warrants it. And a way of telling drivers to stick to one side of the track in the area of an incident.

The 'wave by' rule absolutely has to go. But the safety car could go too if a more agile red flag procedure was put in place. So when needed, stop on the grid in single file in running order (including lapped cars). Tyre blankets and brake fans can go on but no other work including changing tyres. two minute warning to clear the grid, then one warm-up lap, stop on the grid, and start as normal except for the single file.

So broadly, extend the VSC into the safety car's territory at one end, and extend the red flag rule in from the other end. Voila! No safety car.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I get why and I understand the yellows or reds for track entry given but I'm also used to it. No US track would have been anything other than SC for track entry and had at a truck blocking the right of the track while moving the car

I would argue that IndyCar and Nascar pace cars drive much slower, especially in narrow circuits.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

But the safety car could go too if a more agile red flag procedure was put in place. So when needed, stop on the grid in single file in running order (including lapped cars). Tyre blankets and brake fans can go on but no other work including changing tyres. two minute warning to clear the grid, then one warm-up lap, stop on the grid, and start as normal except for the single file.

that would work for me other then having the cars to stay on the same tires...add in lapped cars held in their out or order positions on potentially old tires could be a recipe for disastrous re starts.

no perfect solutions (and F1 is notorious for atypical situations cropping up to point out gaps in the rules) but perhaps if every car had one (extra) set of new softs held in reserve and only to be used in the cases of a late race re starts? would that additional level of safety outweigh the loss of advantage naturally earned by those who had saved a fresh set of softs?

it was suggested earlier or in another thread that the trade off is between safety and fairness...i would argue that entertainment is also a factor that should be considered.

a race finishing under green is of course more entertaining but having an accident during a re start would not be entertaining/a significantly worse way for a race to end...so in those cases i would be inclined to prioritize safety and entertainment at the expense of fairness.

that or just find a way to be happy with the occasional race that ends under a SC?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by nobster

They were never on for the win.....!
Max had been faster and more consistent on all the tyres they tried out.

Agreed. Max is head and shoulders above the rest at the moment, he's consistent, making great overtakes and is driving what is clearly the fastest car. So much so that it doesn't really matter that much now where he starts on the grid. The championship is over bar some catastrophe for Max (which obviously I'm not hoping for).

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by GregUK

Using a VSC does, at least, properly neutralise the race. If the tyres lose temp and pressure it should be well within the driver's skillset to deal with it.

Save the SC for the most serious of situation and get rid of the 'wave by' rule.

The 'wave by' rule is strange. Why is it there? Only to allow closer racing between lead drivers?

I understand the safety imperative of the full safety car. I advocate stopping the race and restarting with drivers released at intervals equivalent to their track positions before. Wouldn't that work? There may be some faults, but wouldn't it work on the whole? Similar to how the VSC works now, except with no free pit stops.

[Richard C]

First, let me say I have not watched the race yet as I was out of town over the weekend and unable to watch it.

Originally Posted by Born Racer

The 'wave by' rule is strange. Why is it there? Only to allow closer racing between lead drivers?

I think it was done as you say to allow closer racing between those on the lead lap by removing lapped cars that might reside between those on the lead lap.

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I understand the safety imperative of the full safety car. I advocate stopping the race and restarting with drivers released at intervals equivalent to their track positions before. Wouldn't that work? There may be some faults, but wouldn't it work on the whole? Similar to how the VSC works now, except with no free pit stops.

I think what you say can work. I can imagine it might take at least a lap or more to reset the field to a pre-red flag gaps.

Overall, I think we see complaints around restarts that are late in the race and the impact on the outcome. As the restart (or potential restart) happens on or just before the last lap, the impact to who wins is more apparent. Meaning you can have restarts at the beginning of the race that heavily impact the race results, but for some reason people are more accepting of those vs. late race.

In short, It think anything that makes the restart more complex such as allowing lapped cars to pass, or red flag and then rebuild the gaps in the field, all would take extra time to me. And if we are in the final stages of the race, that can create situations in which the race is more likely to finish under yellow.

Lastly, I tend to think that ANY safety car rules will create winners and losers in that someone will benefit and someone will not. And in late race situations, this creates driver and fan drama as those who were disadvantaged in any given scenario will feel that the rules screwed them.

Quick example...

Allow lapped cars to pass. Takes long to do and race finishes under yellow. Second place felt he had pace to make a pass for first. So he feels he was screwed.

Don't allow lapped cars to pass. Get back to racing quicker, but second place has to fight through lapped cars and it prevents him from challenging for the lead. So he feels he was screwed.

Richard

[VIVA GT]

I think that Richard has hit the nail on the head here. ANYTHING unusual that happens ANYTIME during the race could quite easily change the race result compared to if these things didn't happen. This doesn't have to be just safety cars, it could be something (admittedly more natural/less artificial) like a rain storm, or something more 'mechanical' like debris/oil on the track, but (any of) these things happen.
Racing drivers (and their biggest fans) can always come up with reasons as to why they would have won the race if only something had or hadn't happened!

[crmalcolm]

I don't think the 'lapped cars' rule is about closing up the leaders, but more about removing the need for a whole bunch of blue flags on the restart.

Take the following as a possible order behind the SC:
1,15,16,2,3,17,4,18,5,6,19,20,7.....

Showing the blue flag to the correct cars, and them knowing how many cars to let through makes the restart chaotic. All while the field is bunched up.

Get rid of the lapped cars, and the problem goes away.....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I don't think the 'lapped cars' rule is about closing up the leaders, but more about removing the need for a whole bunch of blue flags on the restart.

Take the following as a possible order behind the SC:
1,15,16,2,3,17,4,18,5,6,19,20,7.....

Showing the blue flag to the correct cars, and them knowing how many cars to let through makes the restart chaotic. All while the field is bunched up.

Get rid of the lapped cars, and the problem goes away.....

I don't know the details of how the sausage was actually made. I can imagine race control and maybe course workers advocating for or supporting those argument you make above (sensible reasons). At the same time I can imagine the commercial rights holders thinking "this bunches up the leaders for entertaining race action". Maybe everyone involved had their own reasons for making it happen. I can also imagine those sensible reasons being the public face for "why" vs. it just being a blatant manipulation of the race order (or rather "on track" order). I believe the rule existed in Indycar (or other series) prior to F1 doing it. I wonder why Indycar decided to do it? For the same reasons or not?

Richard

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Don't allow lapped cars to pass. Get back to racing quicker, but second place has to fight through lapped cars and it prevents him from challenging for the lead. So he feels he was screwed.

But in that example the leader has already had to get past the lapped cars. Racing drivers have a great capacity for feeling "screwed" when things don't go there way. That doesn't mean it's actually so.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I advocate stopping the race and restarting with drivers released at intervals equivalent to their track positions before. Wouldn't that work? There may be some faults, but wouldn't it work on the whole? Similar to how the VSC works now, except with no free pit stops.

I used to advocate that too, but there is one flaw that is probably the killer. If there was a car just in front of the leader (about to be lapped) when the red flag came out, he is going to have to wait a full lap after the leader before restarting. You then have the situation of one car just moving off from a standing start while another is screaming through at full race speed. That would be a recipe for disaster.

The VSC is so obviously the fairest way of neutralising a race, so I think the FIA should be putting its efforts into developing the procedure so that it can cover more situations. I can only think of two scenarios where a more sophisticated VSC protocol wouldn't work:
1. When there is too much debris on the track so there is no safe path through.
2. When injury or barrier repairs would make the VSC period unreasonably long.
In those cases there would have to be a red flag (as there currently is). However there is definitely scope to streamline the red flag procedure too.