[Official] Austrian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 1 of who knows how many

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GT6

Very sad that Hamilton says he wants to help other BAME drivers but ends up for the second time depriving the only other BAME driver of a podium and points by his rather poor awareness of other cars being faster than him.

It would be even sadder if Hamilton reacted differently on the track to favour a BAME driver over another competitor.

Unless he's your teammate, there's no reason to help any other driver on the track whilst racing.

Hamilton's intention is to help drivers off the track to achieve their aim of competing. Once they're in a race, they're just another rival.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It would be even sadder if Hamilton reacted differently on the track to favour a BAME driver over another competitor.

Unless he's your teammate, there's no reason to help any other driver on the track whilst racing.

Hamilton's intention is to help drivers off the track to achieve their aim of competing. Once they're in a race, they're just another rival.

I understand, but it is just ironic what actually happened again.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I personally thought it was a racing incident as well: and very different in nature to the Hamilton/Albon contact in Brazil.

Albon was definitely quicker, but the move was high risk and unnecessary. Hamilton never came off the steering (and it sounded like he was off throttle), so I think a punishment was uncalled for.

Surprised Mercedes didn't use team tactics to keep Hamilton on the podium.

Once he was given the 5 sec. penalty, the only team tactic which would have kept him on the podium would have been for Bottas to hand over the lead.

[Armco Bender]

Bit of a sideshow for the first race,but Mercedes totally dominant again.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by GT6

I understand, but it is just ironic what actually happened again.

It isn't ironic in the slightest.

[steve_r]

I think it would have been a very high risk to swap Bottas and Hamiltons positions at the end. To get a 1-2, Bottas would have to put himself into the clutches of the baying pack, half of whom were on nice new soft tyres, much like Albon was.

I was surprised that Hamilton got a penalty, as I thought it was a racing incident. Plenty of other incidents at turn 2 looked just as bad and went unpunished.

What a great race though.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Once he was given the 5 sec. penalty, the only team tactic which would have kept him on the podium would have been for Bottas to hand over the lead.

Which wouldn't have harmed Bottas in the slightest unless he doubted his ability to keep within 5 seconds of Hamilton....I'm sure it could have been managed

[Knowlesy]

Trouble is you are asking a driver to risk a win to compensate for an error their teammate made. Not really on, is it?

[Adam43]

The priority is the win, it’s a stressful environment and they were worried about the cars lasting. I can see why you don’t really think about messing around with things like this at the time. It also took a fastest lap by the Lando to do it. He grabbed it with corners to go.

[gert]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Once he was given the 5 sec. penalty, the only team tactic which would have kept him on the podium would have been for Bottas to hand over the lead.

There's no way Toto would do that.
When the penalty was announced Leclerc, Perez and both McLarens were within 5 seconds of Lewis. All of those excpet Perez were on fresher tires.

Why risk Bottas' first place to
* Lewis if he got away more than 5 seconds
* either of the chasing pack who would as a consequence of letting Hamilton by all be within 5 seconds of Bottas, if not less. Probably 3 or 4.

The possible rewards were simply not worth the risk.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Tend to agree it was slightly harsh, but then again Mercedes slipped up in not advising Bottas to let Hamilton through to try to build enough gap......

I actually find that idea quite odd. While Hamilton pushed hard to catch Bottas, I also think Bottas was maintaining a pace. Both drivers had different objectives. One to try to catch, the other to maintain the lead. Bottas had little incentive to push harder than he did. And clearly the team was pushing them (multiple radio warnings) to go easy. Who knows what was said on the radio, but I think the expectation was for them to finish in their respective positions unless Bottas developed pace issues.

Having them swap positions after the 5 second penalty for Hamilton (with Bottas then playing the spoiler to slow anyone behind.) Lots of problems with that. No guarantee the swap wouldn't create problems and allow those close behind to catch up. They were already close. No guarantee Hamilton would be able to increase his pace beyond what he was doing already (I suspect they asked both drivers to push a bit). Why put Bottas' well deserved win at risk? It have been seen in quite a poor light. As it basically would have been an effort to contravene the stewards decisions, not to mention unfair to Bottas. Yes, I know life is not fair, but man it would not look good on Mercedes. Plus it could have gone wrong.

In the end, I am sure glad Mercedes didn't start issuing orders for Bottas to pull aside... on the first race of the season and in which Bottas was leading from poll!! If Hamilton wanted to be up front, then qualify higher and stay out of penalty trouble. Given their respective progress through the weekend, it would have been wrong to push Hamilton forward just because... "Hamilton".

Richard

[schanche]

Have to say Kudos to Lando fighting with his team mate cleanly some ballsy moves and fastest lap well done that man! Zac was excited good to see. Great start to the late season F1 never goes to plan but you can always rely on Vettel.

[seanyb505]

So, same time same place next week?

[Adam43]

Yeah, why not?

[Born Racer]

Perhaps it's because I've been watching old Grand Prix racing, because of the hiatus, the cornering speeds these days or a combination thereof, but it looked fast this weekend.

[Skam85]

I'm not sure if it's just me but it looked like Bottas backed up Hamilton ever so slightly in those last few corners on the last lap.

He probably didn't, but bravo if he did. A bit of gamesmanship between dominant teammates is what 2020 needs.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I was surprised that Hamilton got a penalty, as I thought it was a racing incident. Plenty of other incidents at turn 2 looked just as bad and went unpunished.

Really, care to make the other incidents at 2 where a car went around and went unpunished? We'll wait while you make things up to justify your claim. The other incident close was cleared because the driver attacking stupidly spun himself without harming the other car. There were no other incidents to draw comparison. He's an F1 world champion and couldn't see the car fast from behind and PAST him in the corner, and importantly ON THE TRACK? Albon made a ballsy but good move and was well within his rights to be there.

5 seconds needs to go up in the future as drivers don't seem to care about that penalty. Continued actions need to be punished greater across the field. Make the drivers police themselves and make other drivers pressure the offenders to drive right.

[dsg]

I thought the 5 second penalty was justified as IMO Lewis could have avoided contact with Albon's back tyre.

Great last lap by Lando to get the fastest lap and his first F1 podium.

I also read that the Hamilton penalty means he now has 7 points on his license. If he gets 11 he has to sit out a race. Could be critical in a short season.

[sizzle]

Not the greatest of Hamilton fans I am happy to admit but he was robbed twice on the weekend.
F1 and every other category in the world today are trigger finger happy on yellow flags, and that was a racing incident if ever there was one.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Which wouldn't have harmed Bottas in the slightest unless he doubted his ability to keep within 5 seconds of Hamilton....I'm sure it could have been managed

I don't think he would have been too pleased and after what happened in Austria in 2002, it would have looked very contrived.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gert

There's no way Toto would do that.
When the penalty was announced Leclerc, Perez and both McLarens were within 5 seconds of Lewis. All of those excpet Perez were on fresher tires.

Why risk Bottas' first place to
* Lewis if he got away more than 5 seconds
* either of the chasing pack who would as a consequence of letting Hamilton by all be within 5 seconds of Bottas, if not less. Probably 3 or 4.

The possible rewards were simply not worth the risk.

I'm not suggesting he would. I was replying to tbtstt's comment, #325

[S griffin]

Wow, what a race that was!

I have to agree that the penalty on Hamilton was a bit harsh. He didn't release the steering, he kept it turning and Albon was just caught out. Racing incident IMHO. Still good drive by Albon, showing he's a solid backup to Max. Just a shame both PUs failed on the cars

Great drive by Leclerc, dragging that Ferrari by the scruff of it's neck onto the podium. As for Vettel, what summed up that moment was the laughs from Ben and David. DC said you could see that coming knowing Seb. A schoolboy error if ever I saw one, he was never going to make that move stick. His head really seems to have dropped

Great result for both McLarens. Norris really came alive in the late stages having always been there of thereabouts. He's really raised his game even more this season.

Both Racing Points are looking good as expected. Just a shame Stroll went out early on, but great result for Checo. Shame for Russell, the new Williams really looks like it is able to compete with others this season. Points could have come his way if not for that failure

Great win for Bottas, really did well to get an ailing car to the end. However I'm not going to make predictions as at this moment we don't if there are 7 races left or 17! However it is extra important to get as many points as you can till we know for sure

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Really, care to make the other incidents at 2 where a car went around and went unpunished? We'll wait while you make things up to justify your claim.
.

No, I do not want to "make things up to justify my claim" like I am in some kind of court of law, instead of a friendly (!) motorsport forum. I respect peoples opinions who think it was a penalty, without asking them to "justify their claim".

The stewards decsion could have gone either way, and there are arguments on both sides.

[Taxi645]

I hate the :the "full lock" argument Toto and others are trying to make or he should've left more room (sure he is just defending his driver). As if a large part of driving any motorsport vehicle isn't about steering the vehicle with the throttle. Even before Hamilton reached the apex, Albon's front wheel was before his. He should've controlled his throttle to avoid bashing into a car already in front of him and having superior corner speed because of the tyre difference.


There was no more room to give for Albon, at the moment of impact his left wheel was already almost on the kerb and moving to the outside still. Any more room would have him ending up in the gravel.


Albon at all times left Hamilton more than a car width on track as required by the rules. The other way around that was not the case which resulted in a collision and the other driver out of the race.


I do understand Hamilton doesn't want to give up his position just like that and desperately wanted to hang on to it. Probably half of the driver field would've done exactly the same, yet that doesn't excuse anyone from not obeying the wheel to wheel combat rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHBgQw5OecA (you can play it at 0.25x speed if you want).

In my view a racing incident is when a collision, outside the fault of the driver, is very difficult to avoid (in this case avoidable by controlling speed/throttle to leave sufficient space) and/or when both drivers have similar levels off blame (Albon did not breach any rule to cause the collision). So neither is the case here.


If they apply strict penalizing on breaking wheel to wheel combat rules then the mental equation inside the drivers head (at least the smart ones) will go from "**** I don't want to lose my position" to "damn I don't want to loose my position, but I really don't want a drive through penalty". Our enjoyment of racing will only strongly increase by it. Many F1 drivers these days aren't used to safely driving side by side any more (the Sainz/Norris battle yesterday was a nice exception).

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

In my view a racing incident is when a collision, outside the fault of the driver, is very difficult to avoid (in this case avoidable by controlling speed/throttle to leave sufficient space) and/or when both drivers have similar levels off blame (Albon did not breach any rule to cause the collision). So neither is the case here.

Interesting perspective and this is a change we are seeing in motorsport it seems. There is more culpability apportioned in many incidents and an attempt to seek to define what is clearly acceptable and worthy of a penalty (and there are more penalties). There is a shift to punishing misdemeanours and seeing the punishments not as a form of rebuke of the drivers, but as an integral part of race management. For what it's worth, I'm not sure where I stand. The goal posts are shifting and I'm observing it with interest. However, I do think Hamilton wasn't trying to crowd out Albon and looked to be holding a tighter line. He's inevitably going to get on the throttle at some point, though. The problem with such policing in motorsport is also because decisions happen so quickly. All in all, and based on precedent, I would call it a super racing incident.

You could also argue that if both drivers have similar levels of blame, you could punish them both. We don't seem to see that. We see the 'wronged' driver not being punished, but if both have some fault, you could make a case for saying you penalise them both. I'm not expecting it, though (nor desiring it).