|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
20 Apr 2001, 15:56 (Ref:82738) | #1 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 10
|
atlasf1.com has a story re these sensors which, if true, will already render ineffective the 'evening the playing field' of re-unoutlawing tc. as the lights cut, these sensors will automatically launch the car. the fia must acquire adequate electronics personnel in order to put a stop to the bending of the rules. although it's justifiable and understandable for the teams to 'work' the rules, f1 is steering towards remote-controlled (i.e., driverless) cars in the not-so-near future. why cannot f1 regulate these electronics? is the fia's history always been to succumb to rules violators when it's easier than fixing the problem? surely, these aids can be detected with better personnel in possession of more sophisticated equipment. but then, i'm speculating. is this a possiblity?
|
|
|
20 Apr 2001, 16:27 (Ref:82743) | #2 | |||
Rookie
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 24
|
Quote:
However, getting these things to detect and react to problems - debris on track, other competitors and so on - is where the drivers' skills still beat a machine. But for qualifying, a computer would be better: One lap of the track at the hands of a driver, at any speed, just picking out the optimum line, and there would not even be a requirement for an on board map of the track: the next lap, and every one after it, the computer would be able to drive the car at optimum speed for that line -- no question. The good news for F1 fans, however, is that the FIA's move to ban power steering and braking prevents computers being involved in these actions. Optimum acceleration is already available from traction control, so the limits of gain are already defined. Credit to any team who make a launch control work properly, if you ask me, as they are clearly reacting within the limit of the rules... Just my tuppence worth. |
|||
|
21 Apr 2001, 20:53 (Ref:83213) | #3 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,946
|
Now see this is what I don't understand. TC is being legalised because it's becoming "undetectable". Yet they're banning braking and steering aids. If they can't police TC, how are they going to monitor that??
I'm with Valve Bounce on this one. Ban all batteries on cars. Cockpit lights could run of dynamos. Gears would be manual WITH A CLUTCH (skill, do you see??). Bring it back to the old skool daze!!! BTW: f1rumours, just thought I'd let you know you're newletter is cracking and have been a subscriber for ages. Just a bit of support there for ya!! Everybody: www.f1rumours.com |
||
|
22 Apr 2001, 06:41 (Ref:83387) | #4 | |
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 303
|
i have to agree with tristan. i 2 wanna see more driver skills than super electronics controling cars..thats not racing..i wish i could see 32 cars (16 competitive teams) with no aids or TC. pure driver skills. we wouldnt have to see only 2 or 3 drivers win races all the time.
|
|
|
22 Apr 2001, 06:59 (Ref:83393) | #5 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 247
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
|
22 Apr 2001, 08:03 (Ref:83404) | #6 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,727
|
Quote:
2. Design this computer in such a way that it can only run programs in the hardware. 3. Make the teams use a strictly standardized coding method. You could even enforce a standardized software development environment, and have the teams hand in the complete project files. That way the FIA can check whether the software in the PROM (or whatever) is identical to the generated object code. Don K. |
||
|
22 Apr 2001, 13:39 (Ref:83553) | #7 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,946
|
I see no reason why all batteries (and thus computers) can't be banned.
|
||
|
23 Apr 2001, 11:04 (Ref:83961) | #8 | ||||
Rookie
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 24
|
Thanks for the plug...
Quote:
By the way, there are no batteries on board. That's why they use an external starter: the electricity is generated by the engine, and must be permitted to do so whilst F1 depends on four stroke units... how else do the teams generate a spark? And if you have electricity, you can run electronic devices, and so you might as well permit batteries. Quote:
Enuff plugs, they don't belong here -- I suggest the moderator moves any offending message components to a more suitable spot! Just my tuppence worth... |
||||
|
23 Apr 2001, 11:42 (Ref:83974) | #9 | |
Rookie
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 39
|
With the amount of money that is generated by the F1 circus, I just do not believe that policing is a problem. Car manufacturers cannot afford to have their name on a car that is unreliable or can crash - it just isn't good for business. We all saw this last season with Bridgestone at Indiana! Lets take a leaf out of CARTS book - manufacturers supply engines and chassis and let the teams buy whatever combination they like! F1 mustn't let the car industry take control
Bring back clutch and manual gear change. That'll open up the braking zones. |
|
|
24 Apr 2001, 00:07 (Ref:84221) | #10 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,512
|
Quote:
No comeback from the "Ban the Batteries" Squad? Oh dear...! |
|||
|
24 Apr 2001, 01:05 (Ref:84238) | #11 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,101
|
Don K is absolutely right. The FIA not only have the power of controlling the rules, but designing them as well. So there's no excuse of letting stuff get out of hand one way or the other.
But on the other hand Laxman's second point is as valid as well because the manufacturer's interests is exactly what the FIA has been dancing too instead of pursuing some sort of goal of 'supreme racing'. Over the years they kind of sold the soul of autoracing to commerce and the results are obvious and the absolute lack of control and opportunistic singing-along apparent as well. Power steering and braking is permitted btw. Even next year under the new regulations. The new rules only stipulate that they can't be electronically controlled (which for the matter of brakes was already banned before the 1998 season). So they can use power steering but only mechanically from 2002 onwards. And achieve some by using the misty depths of the diff-rules to their fullest ofcourse. |
||
|
24 Apr 2001, 05:34 (Ref:84312) | #12 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,491
|
Quote:
As such, if the computers can be run directly on the dynamos, then I stand corrected. If not, then ban all batteries is still my plea. I think the band of anti-on board computers followers is growing by the day here. I had very few responding to my original thread which disappeared after a few days from our BB. Now gradually, more people are sympathetic to our cause. BTW Sparky, what are your feelings on the development of on board computer aids in F1? Do you think that F1 is heading in the right direction with these electronic aids? |
|||
|
24 Apr 2001, 05:53 (Ref:84316) | #13 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,491
|
AS FOR LAUNCH CONTROL AND OTHER ELECTRONIC STUFF
Patrick Head
The WilliamsF1 Technical Director gives an explanation of the new software changes being introduced in Spain: "Barcelona sees the new regulations that permit significantly more management of the engine, gearbox, differential and clutch and this will permit traction control, which will be conducted by different teams in different ways. They will be looking to reduce the power of the engine in response to sensed wheel spin. Some may be using ignition cutting, some may be using ignition retards, some may be using throttle closure, there are a number of different ways, or a combination of ways of achieving an end result. It would certainly be very significant if the qualifying or race are wet, or run on a damp track. Probably of less importance if the race and qualifying are dry, but certainly there will be many tracks this year where it will be a deciding factor. As far as the clutch is concerned people will be using automatic starts, although the trigger for the starts will need to come from the driver. He will need to respond to the lights going out and give a command through whatever mechanism to initiate the start. The diff control is probably not hugely significant, but it gives a little more freedom to control the differential to assist the handling of the car. Being able to fully automate the gearbox probably won't make a great deal of difference, but will just mean that instead of the driver responding to lights on the dashboard, telling him when to change gear, it will change up automatically and change down automatically." HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE THAT DIFFICULT FOR SOME BRIGHT LAD TO COME UP WITH THE DEVICE TO AUTOMATICALLY LAUNCH THE CAR WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT. (Sorry for the caps). |
||
|
24 Apr 2001, 12:26 (Ref:84396) | #14 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 778
|
Re: AS FOR LAUNCH CONTROL AND OTHER ELECTRONIC STUFF
i]Originally posted by Valve Bounce [/i]
Patrick Head: "It would certainly be very significant if the qualifying or race are wet, or run on a damp track." Interesting sentence when you stop to think about it. With the TC System in control of the throttle and the gear box in the wet, it seems to me we have the potential for some real conflicts between car and driver. Surely there must be some way for the drivers to override the TC. |
||
|
24 Apr 2001, 17:11 (Ref:84480) | #15 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,512
|
Quote:
I have no problem with Formula One representing the pinnacle of technology in racing. There are a million other formulae that cater to spectators wishing to watch a battle of ‘driver skill’ only. (Any of the one-make series, the Formula Palmer-Audi, any of the Formula Ford/Vauxhall/Holden/Renault series etc. Any one of those will provide a level playing field, and hopefully be a test of driver capabilities alone.) But this isn’t why I watch Formula One. Grand Prix Racing, to me at least, has always been about a team (any team) being able to bring the best combination of engine, chassis, tyres and driver together every other weekend, so the rest of us can watch in open-mouth amazement as they battle against all odds for two hours. To say that the technology is so effective, that any driver could do the job is stretching things too, I’m afraid. I’m sure it is easier than the ‘golden days’ but the FIA have tried (some might say successfully) to significantly reduce the hazards involved in all racing, but specifically Formula One. The drivers currently signed to todays F1 teams are not there because they secretly hope the FIA will return to pre-’79 ideas on the car specification. They are in it for the thrill of speed, the financial reward, the notoriety. I’m sure there are many things they would like to change, but you don’t see them flocking to other series so that they can have a “True test of driver skill”, do you? Can you imagine any of the top ten drivers migrating to Formula Ford because the racing was closer? I can’t either. That isn’t to say that I would like to watch Schumacher or Frentzen driving cars with TC, ABS, Power steering and so on, but you can limit the use of these systems without going to the lengths of suggesting that EVERY control unit in the car be outlawed. The sport you would be left with would bear NO resemblance to the one you currently watch. F1 has evolved. As long as I’ve been a fan, and for many years before that, regulations were changed and technology came along that have changed the face of Grand Prix racing for ever. Electronics are a feature of today. Almost every single electrical product sold today has a mass of electronics stuffed inside. It IS possible to run a grand Prix car with magneto ignition, a bank of twin carburettors, zero sensors and hooked up to mechanical linkages, but that isn’t how the car of today operates. If you forced these components on todays Formula One cars, they’d be historic Formula One cars, and you can already go see these if you would prefer. I enjoy listening to 20,000 rpm rather than a mechanical limit of 10,000 rpm. I prefer to see a sport that is continually evolving, and the lengths the teams will go to, to try and gain the upper edge. IF a particular team was cheating on the TC issue, that could/should have been investigated fully, not given in to. I realise that this isn’t the popular view, but at least it is realistic. |
|||
|
24 Apr 2001, 21:51 (Ref:84546) | #16 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,946
|
...and even though I posted on another thread with a view that deeply contradicts yours, Sparks, I CAN see you point. It's difficult. There HAS to be a compramise somewhere.
|
||
|
24 Apr 2001, 22:09 (Ref:84555) | #17 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,512
|
Thanks Tristan.
That's all I was trying to say on 'that' other thread... (the "Dimwit" one!) As long as there's electrical power required for the ignition system and a myriad of other equipment (Yes, including driver aids... ) There was no point in outlawing batteries in an effort to ban computers and electronic control units.. That was my point. I'm glad we have common ground at last, Tristan! Now if I can just convince Mr Bounce... |
||
|
24 Apr 2001, 23:00 (Ref:84570) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 3,964
|
Optic sensors is taking it too far, as someone has said. Plus think of how many disputed restarts there would be because a car failed to start. Optic sensors - along with TC and automatic gearboxes - is a bit too much.
|
||
|
25 Apr 2001, 00:03 (Ref:84600) | #19 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,491
|
Quote:
So what I would like to think of F1 is the development of the F1 cars within certain parameters that would still enable the more skillful drivers to triumph over the lessor skilled. Engines could still have very high revs without computers, since the development of pneumatic valves. Cars will have direct fuel injection, no worries - computers are not needed for this. So I see the best development from a mechanical and aerodynamic aspect for the F1 car. Even automatic gears can be designed without the use of computers. Why ban computers? TRACS is only allowed now because such a system cannot be stopped or even checked by the FIA - no other reason. Once computers were permitted, their use was easily diverted to provide TRACS. I would like the driver to have to decide when to change gears, how much throttle to use going through a corner, how hard to brake to slow the car in corners most effectively. I certainly don't want to see drivers flatten the throttle going through a corner knowing that the computer will sort out how much power the rear wheels need, and not even have to decide when to change gears. I would like the more gifted drivers in wet conditions to drive rings around those with little wet weather skills. Basically, I would like to see the best drivers in the world compete against each other with the best driver coming out ahead. Now what I really want is someone to tell me why computers are necesary in an F1 car. BUT, having said all this, I fully agree with Sparky that all my aspirations expressed in this post are totally unrealistic - it will never happen. I am just having my two bob's worth, that's all. Last edited by Valve Bounce; 25 Apr 2001 at 00:08. |
|||
|
25 Apr 2001, 10:04 (Ref:84693) | #20 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 63
|
It is unlikely that optic sensors will ever be used. The amount of light coming from the start lights is insignificant in comparison the ambient light so the sensors would require focusing on the lights. Remember that the cars still have to do a parade lap so unless the driver can stop in exactly the same place the focused sensors would not pick up the lights.
The other potential problem is a cloud covering the grid just before lights out. The ambient light would drop considerably, possibly giving the cars the impression that the race was on. Could you imagine all 22 cars jumping the start and disappearing in to the distance? I think that the light sensors issue is just pipe dreams and is very unlikely to happen. |
||
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Rumour - Ferrari also developing 'heat sensors' ... | Hugh Jarce | Formula One | 33 | 14 Oct 2001 00:31 |