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Old 19 Jun 2018, 19:05 (Ref:3831950)   #46
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Clearly Honda is totally in cahoots with Toro Rosso in an effort to pull the wool over Red Bull's eyes! Kudos to them for effortlessly fooling what was likely quite an extensive examination of all of the data by Red Bull.

Note... My post is sarcastic as I assume yours was as well?

Really any discussion about McLaren and Honda's past can only say that it was a mess. Issues on both sides. Honda weathered the abuse quite well while they had problems. So Honda is on the upswing now (anyone who believes otherwise has their head in the sand), but Red Bull is still a tough customer. So 2019 and beyond should be interesting. At a minimum, running two teams should give them twice the on-track data.

Overall... maybe if the 2017 Honda engine was mated to the 2019 Red Bull it will fit everyone's expectation of doom?

Richard
I think it's a little premature to say Honda are on the upswing. The European part of the season proper, is about to get underway this weekeend and the GPs will be coming thick and fast before the F1 Circus has its summer break. The French, Austrian and British GPs are on consecutive weekends, with a two week gap followed by back-to-back GPs in Germany and Hungary, so if they are indeed on the upswing, this is when they need to prove they are.

Interestingly, after last year's Canadian GP, TR were 5th in the WCC with 29 points, this year McLaren are 5th with 40 points.
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Old 19 Jun 2018, 19:50 (Ref:3831958)   #47
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I think it's a little premature to say Honda are on the upswing.
I am truly curious why you say that? Compared to last year they have made a huge stride forward with respect to reliability and performance (still not as good as the benchmark). And while people can be cynical and say "the drivers were paid to say glowing things", they were very happy with the upgraded power unit at Canada.

What evidence suggests they are NOT on the upswing? Note, my definition of "upswing" is that they are making measurable and substantial forward progress.

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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
The European part of the season proper, is about to get underway this weekeend and the GPs will be coming thick and fast before the F1 Circus has its summer break. The French, Austrian and British GPs are on consecutive weekends, with a two week gap followed by back-to-back GPs in Germany and Hungary, so if they are indeed on the upswing, this is when they need to prove they are.
I take this to mean that after much of the season has been run that we can then look back and comment on how Honda has done. That is about looking in the past. I am talking about now. What delta has Honda produced since 2017 season end?

Given the limited number of power units allowed, teams can't really dribble out upgrades as we go. So I would expect maybe one more upgrade from Honda before the end of the season. And it is likely to not be as large as the recent one. I think what remains of the season is the question of the level of reliability.

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Interestingly, after last year's Canadian GP, TR were 5th in the WCC with 29 points, this year McLaren are 5th with 40 points.
I did a poor job in my earlier post, but my intent was to say that... frankly whatever is happening now or in the recent past with McLaren has zero relevance with respect to Honda today. And there are likely a number of vast differences between McLaren and TR in general (Alonso factor for one) and changes between one year to the next (such as totally new drivers at TR). So its a bit hard to compare them in some way that somehow pretends the only difference between the teams is the engine swap that happened over the winter. I would argue that given it's resources that McLaren remains a hot mess. They must be thankful that Williams is a total disaster to keep the questions off them.

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Old 19 Jun 2018, 23:14 (Ref:3831984)   #48
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What evidence suggests they are NOT on the upswing? Note, my definition of "upswing" is that they are making measurable and substantial forward progress.
Pretty much every piece of data you can find?


The onus is on you to suggest evidence that they actually are 'on the upswing'. We've heard all this before.
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Old 19 Jun 2018, 23:26 (Ref:3831985)   #49
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I am truly curious why you say that? Compared to last year they have made a huge stride forward with respect to reliability and performance (still not as good as the benchmark). And while people can be cynical and say "the drivers were paid to say glowing things", they were very happy with the upgraded power unit at Canada.

What evidence suggests they are NOT on the upswing? Note, my definition of "upswing" is that they are making measurable and substantial forward progress.


I take this to mean that after much of the season has been run that we can then look back and comment on how Honda has done. That is about looking in the past. I am talking about now. What delta has Honda produced since 2017 season end?

Given the limited number of power units allowed, teams can't really dribble out upgrades as we go. So I would expect maybe one more upgrade from Honda before the end of the season. And it is likely to not be as large as the recent one. I think what remains of the season is the question of the level of reliability.


I did a poor job in my earlier post, but my intent was to say that... frankly whatever is happening now or in the recent past with McLaren has zero relevance with respect to Honda today. And there are likely a number of vast differences between McLaren and TR in general (Alonso factor for one) and changes between one year to the next (such as totally new drivers at TR). So its a bit hard to compare them in some way that somehow pretends the only difference between the teams is the engine swap that happened over the winter. I would argue that given it's resources that McLaren remains a hot mess. They must be thankful that Williams is a total disaster to keep the questions off them.

Richard
The onus is on STR/Honda to prove themselves, if they are indeed on the upswing.

Last edited by bjohnsonsmith; 19 Jun 2018 at 23:33.
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Old 19 Jun 2018, 23:46 (Ref:3831988)   #50
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Pretty much every piece of data you can find?


The onus is on you to suggest evidence that they actually are 'on the upswing'. We've heard all this before.
What are you reading? Every major F1 related publication, site, author has a similar stance regarding the upgraded Honda plant at Canada. It was an improvement and MILES beyond the pathetic "upgrade" that Renault rolled out.

And sorry but you've made the claim of all that data, it's YOUR job to demonstrate and back up why you disagree with most in the business, not the poster you don't agree with. And yes, it might get me points but being a tempermental child who doesn't like being told you're in fact wrong, which in most posts you factually are, doesn't mean you get to pretend we're here to provide you with cited references when you don't agree. You have not once provided facts, opinion or even a hint of information to back up your claims, so why exactly is it another job to provide you with info? It's called being informed and reading for yourself
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 01:11 (Ref:3831996)   #51
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
The onus is on STR/Honda to prove themselves, if they are indeed on the upswing.
I am generally at a loss as to how to respond. There is no need to pound my head against the wall on this. But before I move along I will post just one example of articles that came out after the Canadian upgrade.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...an-gp-1045560/

I think the only way to justify the stance the Honda is not making progress is to call articles such as the above as outright lies and that improved reliability is down to pure luck.

Lastly, I will say... avoid conflating STR/Honda with... Honda as a F1 supplier. It is like measuring Renault by looking at McLaren, or Mercedes by looking at Williams. Nothing against STR, but teams don’t always live up to the capability of the power unit.

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 06:19 (Ref:3832021)   #52
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
Pretty much every piece of data you can find?


The onus is on you to suggest evidence that they actually are 'on the upswing'. We've heard all this before.

But Red Bull can compare the data of both the Renault and Honda engines(since they own Toro Rosso) and gone with Honda.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:11 (Ref:3832033)   #53
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I am generally at a loss as to how to respond. There is no need to pound my head against the wall on this. But before I move along I will post just one example of articles that came out after the Canadian upgrade.
Why do you think the opinion of a driver of the very team we're talking about is in any way relevant here? This is all PR speak, I am at a loss why someone would fall for that so blatantly.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:12 (Ref:3832034)   #54
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What are you reading? Every major F1 related publication, site, author has a similar stance regarding the upgraded Honda plant at Canada. It was an improvement and MILES beyond the pathetic "upgrade" that Renault rolled out.

And sorry but you've made the claim of all that data, it's YOUR job to demonstrate and back up why you disagree with most in the business, not the poster you don't agree with. And yes, it might get me points but being a tempermental child who doesn't like being told you're in fact wrong, which in most posts you factually are, doesn't mean you get to pretend we're here to provide you with cited references when you don't agree. You have not once provided facts, opinion or even a hint of information to back up your claims, so why exactly is it another job to provide you with info? It's called being informed and reading for yourself
Honda and its acolytes claim a big improvement. Prove it. It's really that simple, trying to switch the burder of proof will not work here.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:12 (Ref:3832035)   #55
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But Red Bull can compare the data of both the Renault and Honda engines(since they own Toro Rosso) and gone with Honda.
Red Bull's Honda engine decision 'clear cut'
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:30 (Ref:3832042)   #56
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Replace the word 'technical' with 'financial' in that article and we might get the real story on why Red Bull switched.

Mateschitz has been saying for the couple of years now that F1 was costing him too much for the returns. Now he gets free engines and is also being paid to have the Honda logo on all four of his cars. As a business man, he would be stupid to knock that sort of deal back.



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Old 20 Jun 2018, 11:15 (Ref:3832071)   #57
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I give up. I am wrong. The teams and drivers lie about everything. We can’t trust anyone or anything. Also, RBR only looks at financial data when making decisions, so we can expect a quick exit of DR and MV any day now to make way for pay drivers who bring money in. New rumor... Stroll to RBR?

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 12:57 (Ref:3832089)   #58
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Hey Richard, it is quite clear, isn't it: McLaren was not succesful with Honda and they had "the best chassis". No way they can be wrong about that because they are a top team, right. Probably Williams has an even better chassis it is just the engine that sucks. After all, Williams is a (former) top team as well.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 13:04 (Ref:3832090)   #59
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Honda and its acolytes claim a big improvement. Prove it. It's really that simple, trying to switch the burder of proof will not work here.
Actually most of what I read doubted the efficacy of the upgrade until during the race. And they could actually point out sectors where in comparison to the times set pre and post engine swap there was definitive proof Gasly had better engine performance and power usage.

And asking you to demonstrate where your claims come from isn't switching burden of proof. As point of fact, YOU made the claims the improvement was BS without any evidence. As you made the claims of a negative prior without any supporting evidence, you have the burden of proof just because you think we have to do your work for you doesn't make you right. You have not provided any evidence, lap times, fuel eficiency, etc to back up your claims. Sorry but that's not a discussion, that's an I'm right you're wrong child's argument.

FYI, I have read articles on Autosport, F1Fanatic and others all demonstrating the improvements to the engine without being 'acolytes' as you claim. It's obvious you are just out to be argumentative for the purposes of thinking that's the 'smart' challenge but to me it shows your childish and think the internet is for trolling and well honestly that's what ruins the vast majority of it.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 13:27 (Ref:3832092)   #60
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Replace the word 'technical' with 'financial' in that article and we might get the real story on why Red Bull switched.

Mateschitz has been saying for the couple of years now that F1 was costing him too much for the returns. Now he gets free engines and is also being paid to have the Honda logo on all four of his cars. As a business man, he would be stupid to knock that sort of deal back.
As a business man, he would be stupid to run two F1 teams for financial purposes.

His comments about the return he was getting for the expense was not to try and get a better financial deal from their PU provider, but to get a better performance.

RBR cost the company roughly $135million in 2011 - saving about $8-20million on PUs hardly makes a dent on the running costs....
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