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Old 2 Aug 2016, 16:04 (Ref:3663068)   #126
850Estate
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From that angle it looks as if Martin just drives across Howard. I know it's difficult to tell from pictures, but that looks absolutely crazy
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 16:04 (Ref:3663069)   #127
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Loved JC's one word reaction to that tweet, maybe he should be on the stewarding panel! Although is Jeff Allam still part of the driving standards advisory team?

That said it's refreshing to see young drivers like Cook and Sutton realise there's a limit to the contact in tin tops and aren't following bad examples of yesteryear. But this is perhaps the first time in the last couple of seasons we have had a debate on driving standards, so it shows the series has improved

But enough of that, how gutting was it for Tordoff, hard to believe he still only has one win this year. That failure could cost him the title. As for WSR that's two meetings in a row they've lost race 3 in the closing stages. But Collard, despite being a hard racer I never thought I'd see him in the title hunt, but he's certainly improving as a driver year on year
I do think that the driving standards were abysmal on Sunday, and a few more penalties would have been quite justified. Motor racing on a circuit is defined in the rule books as a no contact sport. Yet, because most of the TOCA package are closed wheel cars, it seems that "rubbing" is permitted as it adds spice to the entertainment. IMHO it needs to be stamped out completely, because, as Sunday clearly demonstrated, there is a strong possibility that someone, possibly not one of the drivers, will be seriously hurt.

TOCA escaped lightly on the weekend. There were at least two incidents that should have provided a wake up call to Mr Gow; the coming together in the Porsche race that saw Jellies' car hit the marshals' post by the pit-entry, and the Abbott contact with the TV camera position. I sincerely hope that it will not take a more serious incident to improve driving standards.

And, again in my opinion, it doesn't help when Tim Harvey and Paul O'Neil seem to delight in the "rubbing" and the "tapping" on the rear quarters, saying that that is what Touring Car racing is all about. No it isn't'; it's no contact.

As for Collard, he is a pretty good racer. But, unfortunately, he is like a number of other good racers, they never seem to be able to qualify really well. Here I count myself in this group; we never seemed to appreciate just how quickly we (and the cars) could go when we weren't racing. However, as soon as the flag dropped, we realised that there was more speed available, and we put it to good use.
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 16:57 (Ref:3663077)   #128
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Anyone know if this is just a lack of (any form of) motorsport knowledge or if Kelvin is actually joining a rally team? Perhaps it'd be a good move for him, he does seem to spend more than his fair share of time on the mud, gravel and grass surrounding the tarmac!

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At the age of 32, he has taken the decision to leave and focus on a different career altogether – rally driving.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/enterta...B7mddFjQ3Ol.97
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 17:18 (Ref:3663081)   #129
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I am not a fan of track limits but why do junior catagories get constantly pinged and yet the BTCC constantly flouts them and yet get no penalties. Smells of bullying of the little guys....
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 17:31 (Ref:3663084)   #130
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Anyone know if this is just a lack of (any form of) motorsport knowledge or if Kelvin is actually joining a rally team?
Probably the former.

At least they mentioned which series he is currently racing in, which is more that the Sun managed

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbi...a-rally-driver
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 18:59 (Ref:3663105)   #131
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The sun is too busy with their brexit lies and propaganda
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 19:10 (Ref:3663108)   #132
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From that angle it looks as if Martin just drives across Howard. I know it's difficult to tell from pictures, but that looks absolutely crazy
That looks to me like a classic touring car tap. These are to be found on a very regular basis in a lot of touring car and closed wheel series. Almost every time you see a car turning sideways when they close to another car the cause is usually the same its just a matter of identifying the culprit.

In this case it will almost certainly be contact between Howard's left front corner and Martin's right rear. The only question is who is most at fault and the in car cameras' should tell you who's steering was pointed which way.
Having said that I am not sure how close Howard was to the wall which will also be a factor.
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Old 2 Aug 2016, 23:12 (Ref:3663131)   #133
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I trust Alan Gow and I trust TOCA. The BTCC may be entertainment but anyone who suggests that anybody involved would refuse to impose sanctions in the name of safety, to protect that entertainment aspect, is being ludicrous and downright offensive. Fly-on-the-wall status in the driver's briefing at Knockhill will be fascinating. TBLs are a tangible asset to threaten and I think those threats will be made or even acted upon. Time will tell. But a repeat of Snetterton, and the sort of clumsy and stupid driving that has been witnessed on occasion this season, I believe will be come down upon with a great deal of firmness.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 08:28 (Ref:3663196)   #134
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In this case it will almost certainly be contact between Howard's left front corner and Martin's right rear. The only question is who is most at fault and the in car cameras' should tell you who's steering was pointed which way.
Having said that I am not sure how close Howard was to the wall which will also be a factor.
Exactly - it's hard to tell from the first photo in the sequence - is Martin moving to the right or Howard to the left? That makes all the difference in "who's fault" - from photo 2 onwards in that sequence Martin is just trying to correct the car as it rotates around the front of Howards car, photos before that sequence would be useful.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 08:40 (Ref:3663198)   #135
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The pics are interesting but from the wrong angle to judge.

However, importantly, previous Snetterton start-line accidents have seen 3/4 cars wide coming together in a squeeze, these images show there was space either side of Howard and Martin which lays blame with the drivers IMHO.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 10:05 (Ref:3663203)   #136
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Another view from the Race 2 accident. You can't see the origins of the incident, but clearest view yet of the shocking Welch impact with slow-mo, lucky to be uninjured. Also, Howard and Martin clash separately by the look of things and how lucky was Matt Simpson?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUaLqYBeFNc
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 11:58 (Ref:3663211)   #137
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Another view from the Race 2 accident. You can't see the origins of the incident, but clearest view yet of the shocking Welch impact with slow-mo, lucky to be uninjured. Also, Howard and Martin clash separately by the look of things and how lucky was Matt Simpson?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUaLqYBeFNc
Howard rear-ended Martin when the Ford backed off due to the chaos ahead
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 12:11 (Ref:3663213)   #138
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That's a good view of the crash. Like Tarquini's roll in 94 the amateur footage captures it better than the TV

Fact is anyone who thinks there should be no contact in BTCC is very naive. I mean if it's ok for Villeneuve and Arnoux to entertain us with a bit of wheelbanging, what's wrong with a few tin tops rubbing door handles. The real problem is drivers using the Andy Neate school of not knowing when to back out of it. The only other red flag this year was at Thruxton and that was just bad luck. The two ones here could have been avoided by a bit more common sense. After the R3 red flag I thought at that rate they were going to have to bring back the Snetterton night race, such were the delays
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 12:32 (Ref:3663217)   #139
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Fact is anyone who thinks there should be no contact in BTCC is very naive. I mean if it's ok for Villeneuve and Arnoux to entertain us with a bit of wheelbanging, what's wrong with a few tin tops rubbing door handles. The real problem is drivers using the Andy Neate school of not knowing when to back out of it. The only other red flag this year was at Thruxton and that was just bad luck. The two ones here could have been avoided by a bit more common sense. After the R3 red flag I thought at that rate they were going to have to bring back the Snetterton night race, such were the delays
I would really like to believe that I am not naĂŻve, let alone very naĂŻve. However, the FIA's and MSA's book of regulations clearly state that road course circuit racing is no contact, which means no rubbing, whether that's door handles or love taps on the rear quarters of the car in front. And it certainly means no wheel banging in any discipline including F1.

It may add to the enjoyment of certain spectators and TV viewers, but it has no place in the classes of motor racing that we are discussing. The skill is in being able to pass other cars without touching, and that is, in my humble opinion, far more superior than getting past after knocking on every panel of the car in front. That doesn't require panache and finesse, any knucklehead can do it.

And possibly if Neal hadn't tried to dive into the pits from the opposite side of the track then Thruxton wouldn't have required the red flag; I don't think that that was bad luck, it was lack of judgement!
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 15:24 (Ref:3663250)   #140
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I would really like to believe that I am not naĂŻve, let alone very naĂŻve. However, the FIA's and MSA's book of regulations clearly state that road course circuit racing is no contact, which means no rubbing, whether that's door handles or love taps on the rear quarters of the car in front. And it certainly means no wheel banging in any discipline including F1.

It may add to the enjoyment of certain spectators and TV viewers, but it has no place in the classes of motor racing that we are discussing. The skill is in being able to pass other cars without touching, and that is, in my humble opinion, far more superior than getting past after knocking on every panel of the car in front. That doesn't require panache and finesse, any knucklehead can do it.

And possibly if Neal hadn't tried to dive into the pits from the opposite side of the track then Thruxton wouldn't have required the red flag; I don't think that that was bad luck, it was lack of judgement!
I see what you are saying, but penalising any form of contact in 3 short touring cars races of 30+ cars will be impossible IMHO. More drive throughs than racing.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 15:57 (Ref:3663255)   #141
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I see what you are saying, but penalising any form of contact in 3 short touring cars races of 30+ cars will be impossible IMHO. More drive throughs than racing.
No, it's much simpler than that; black flag the errant driver, and exclude him from the races for the day. 2nd contact, and exclusion from the Championship. Problem should be sorted in the 1st race.

I raced in the Redex Championship in the 60s, completing in about 100 races over 4/5 years. I cannot recall any incident of "rubbing" or push-to-pass, and we also had 30 odd competitors participating in each race. And grids were formed, on the same "narrow" tracks that posters have mentioned, on a 3-2 basis. Yet we all seem to manage to avoid each other throughout the races, which could be pretty frenetic at times. Much like the BTC (or whatever the Championship was called back then) in the 60s and 70s; it was all non-contact. There are some terrific YouTube videos out there showing how close and competitive the racing was then, on narrow tracks lined with trees with no run-off areas and no curbs to launch you around corners.

I'm afraid that on the whole we revere today's drivers too much. Yes, there are some excellent pilots on the grid, and you can see them in action at Goodwood, and who are capable of pretty decent car control, but I would like to see them driving with the same verve in a car that was identical to those from 40/50 years ago. Nobody can convince me that the 60s' saloons that we see racing today, especially at Goodwood, are exactly as they were when first raced.

But just because the safety elements of saloon racing, well actually all forms of racing, are so much superior to the "old days" doesn't mean that it's OK to allow a few panels to be bashed for the sake of entertainment.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 19:01 (Ref:3663295)   #142
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Just found a very interesting view of the Race 3 crash.

After a couple of viewings it does look a lot like Martins Yellow Focus moves into Howard, rather than the reverse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvNlddi1fY

Still, regardless of blame, very glad to hear all concerned are ok.

Did seem like there was a lot of brain fade at this weekends BTCC. The Porsche crash first thing was awful, was very glad that the driver got out of that unscathed.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 21:35 (Ref:3663331)   #143
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I don't go on the BTCC official forum as I find it too full of people who don't know what they are talking about, armchair racers and keyboard warriors, but today I was sent a link to this from Simon Hill - father of Jake.

"BTCC is the UK's highest profile motorsport series (BSB may disagree!).

We all love it. It provides some of the most incredible racing action...and best of all its' FREE to watch thanks to ITV4!

Like every form of motorsport there's 'haves' and 'have-nots' and knowing Dan Welch and the team personally I know they work their boll***s oft get on the grid, but are always right on the limit budget-wise....

Every race this year I hope and pray that Jake's car comes back in one piece cos like Dan we are really, really up against it budget wise.

Interesting to hear some comments about budgets etc....

There are 30+ cars on the grid this year.

As always the racing is fantastic - wild and unpredictable....a great mix of factory teams and drivers and the little guys....

Welch Motorsport - Handy - AmD - Team HARD - Maximum Motorsport - Speedworks....

All of these teams are running close to the edge with their budgets....

There's some majorly talented drivers and some incredible team-personnel in some of those teams.

Many of those mentioned are totally reliant on sponsorship and investors....remarkably even when you get some fantastic results it's still really tough to raise funding.

Imagine if they were all gone - based on the 'you should show you can afford it' logic....

Many of these teams have huge support and some very talented drivers on board....

Watching and enthusing about BTCC it's tough sometimes to appreciate how hard it is to raise the funds just to be on the grid.

So when someone has a devastating shunt like Dan has had - as fans it's easy to suggest 'you shouldn't do it if you can't afford it'

But we have to have persistence - as do they. The dictionary definition is....Persistance ' Continuing in a course of action in spite of difficulty of opposition'

I know Dan and his team and his Dad will be the epitomy of persistence ...

Speaking personally it's been beyond tough to raise the funds for Jake, despite the job he's been doing this season.

So my point is. Just getting on the grid is unbelievable tough. Staying there is tougher. A shunt like that is off the chart tough.

Give them some support for being there and still fighting not grief for not being financially established.

We're still fighting to get Jake out for the rest of the season - God help us if we had a shunt like Dan's....

Get behind him emotionally if not financially....

ALL the best Team Welch.

From one desperately skint driver (well his Dad!) to another!

All my love and support xxx"

I thought that was absolutely fantastic, and sums up my views on the budget subject perfectly. I doubt I'm alone in hoping we see Jake get a big break soon sponsorship wise. The way he's peddled that undeveloped Avensis this season has been nothing short of outstanding and, in the right machinery, he's a future champion in my opinion.
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Old 3 Aug 2016, 21:36 (Ref:3663332)   #144
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Exactly - it's hard to tell from the first photo in the sequence - is Martin moving to the right or Howard to the left? That makes all the difference in "who's fault" - from photo 2 onwards in that sequence Martin is just trying to correct the car as it rotates around the front of Howards car, photos before that sequence would be useful.
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Just found a very interesting view of the Race 3 crash.

After a couple of viewings it does look a lot like Martins Yellow Focus moves into Howard, rather than the reverse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvNlddi1fY

Still, regardless of blame, very glad to hear all concerned are ok.

Did seem like there was a lot of brain fade at this weekends BTCC. The Porsche crash first thing was awful, was very glad that the driver got out of that unscathed.
It looks to me like Martin gets a good start, tries to squeeze across on Howard to get past Lines but hasn't made that much better a start than him and spears himself into the pit wall.

I wish we had access to the onboards, because that would clear everything up.
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Old 4 Aug 2016, 02:38 (Ref:3663368)   #145
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Footage from the judicial cameras is sometimes shown on TV if the original TV angles are inconclusive. I remember that the incident between Andy Neate & Andrew Jordan at Oulton Park in 2010 was shown from Neate's angle on the following round's broadcast.
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Old 4 Aug 2016, 09:23 (Ref:3663399)   #146
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No, it's much simpler than that; black flag the errant driver, and exclude him from the races for the day. 2nd contact, and exclusion from the Championship. Problem should be sorted in the 1st race.

I raced in the Redex Championship in the 60s, completing in about 100 races over 4/5 years. I cannot recall any incident of "rubbing" or push-to-pass, and we also had 30 odd competitors participating in each race. And grids were formed, on the same "narrow" tracks that posters have mentioned, on a 3-2 basis. Yet we all seem to manage to avoid each other throughout the races, which could be pretty frenetic at times. Much like the BTC (or whatever the Championship was called back then) in the 60s and 70s; it was all non-contact. There are some terrific YouTube videos out there showing how close and competitive the racing was then, on narrow tracks lined with trees with no run-off areas and no curbs to launch you around corners.

I'm afraid that on the whole we revere today's drivers too much. Yes, there are some excellent pilots on the grid, and you can see them in action at Goodwood, and who are capable of pretty decent car control, but I would like to see them driving with the same verve in a car that was identical to those from 40/50 years ago. Nobody can convince me that the 60s' saloons that we see racing today, especially at Goodwood, are exactly as they were when first raced.

But just because the safety elements of saloon racing, well actually all forms of racing, are so much superior to the "old days" doesn't mean that it's OK to allow a few panels to be bashed for the sake of entertainment.
Mike, I know where you're coming from here. I've been a huge fan of what I'd generally call 'saloon car racing' for over 40 years, I've always preferred it to open wheelers.
Over the past couple of days I've watched (on youtube) the BTCC Touring Car Greats episodes 1 & 2 during my lunchbreak.
In episond 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fk9dnaoeYI) Tim Harvey (who raced for a number of works teams in the BTCC) explained that "When the manufacturers came into the series, the whole attitude of the drivers changed, and things became more aggressive. We would do everything we could to stop another make of car getting in front of us because the manufacturer's honour was at stake." (I've put this in quotation marks but it may not be word for word exactly what he said). So that was when it appears to have become acceptable.
Sadly I feel that this has become too out of hand, plus a lot of the drivers just don't know how far is too far which is why we're getting these horrendous shunts. I also agree with your sentiment that maybe the cars are too safe now (and this doesn't just relate to BTCC) so the drivers don't appear to have the worry about hurting themselves, which is something else that would make them think twice!
Back to the Touring Car Legends programmes, in the early years you could see that the cars like the Cortina Lotus & Jaguars that competed in the British Saloon Car Championship didn't even have a roll cage!
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Old 4 Aug 2016, 13:43 (Ref:3663425)   #147
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When Andy Neate was driving, and getting a lot of criticism for his standards, a lot of times he was referred to as having a 'chequebook too big for his talent'. IIRC, that was given as a reason why he was 'risky/aggressive' in his driving style.

If this was the case, given that the financial cost of damage may cause teams real difficulty, why are they not willing to be more cautious in their approach?

I can understand the Harvey perspective, as the budgets were high enough to allow for damage repair. Is it a computer game mentality from drivers nowadays that they can just 'reset and start again' if they get it wrong? I struggle to understand any other reason why a driver - knowing that a crash could end his participation in BTCC - would be willing to be so aggressive.
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