Brabham BT21

[Simon Hadfield]

Its 80A-16 - Doug Shierson told us that it had been a SCCA club car. There is a picture of John Sorbello driving a central seat "Osella" in Rich Taylors book Lime Rock Park.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

There is a picture of John Sorbello driving a central seat "Osella" in Rich Taylors book Lime Rock Park.

Thanks Simon.

Does it give a date? Any chance one of the more scanner-literate members of the family could send me a scan?

[Simon Hadfield]

1989. Photo is on page 151, taken during "New England Region National" SCCA round

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by David Irwin

Sorbello was based just north of Boston, MA.

Could that be Lawrence, MA? A John Sorbello owns Eladio Auto Repair at 19 Medford St, Lawrence, MA 01841.

Allen

[David Irwin]

That's Him.

David

[macbt21]

Hello folks,

I finally ran across the name of the person that purchased Hal Roach's car (BT21C-11). His name is Tracy Shepard and he is located in Bloomington, Ill. You can reach him at tracymshepard@dirauto.com.

Mac

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by edholly

The car has an AM number of 288. A couple of things have come to light, I now have 2 independent sources that may indicate the possibility that the car is BT21C-14


The car was sold new to W. McLoughlin (not sure of the spelling), but I am unable to find any reference to him anywhere, or even if he was in the UK, USA or elsewhere. The car ended up in the US, but it may have been an import by Fred Opert in period when only a year or two old.

Can anyone shed any light on W. McLoughlin please, and I will try to trace history from the beginning, as well as continuing to work backwards in time, prior to Philippe De Lespinay’s ownership around 1984.

Ed Holly

Ed: Try Noel [N not W] McGlothlin of Rossville Georgia. In the entry at VIR 29.9.68 with a BT21C. 'McGlothlin' might be a mis-spelling but chances are this is your man!

Chris

[edholly]

Chris

Thanks, for the lead.

Interestingly I have been doing a lot of research into my BT6 which spent a lot of its life in the Shakey Isles.

In NZ there is a Pat McLoughlin listed as running a Cooper Climax in the 1967 14th NZGP. How does a W become Pat? In the grid diagram the P is listed with brackets (P) so maybe there is a clue here too.

Earlier in Vercoe's book he is listed as RWC McLoughlin in a Lotus 22 as an entrant in the 1966 Tasman series. Getting closer with a "W" amongst the initials. Now I know a few New Zealanders who use another of their Christian names rather than the first. A long shot I know but will also follow this lead.

Are there any New Zealanders that know of "Pat" RWC McLoughlin ?

Ed

[David McKinney]

There were two brothers, P A T (Pat) and R W C (Roger). Roger had a Lotus 20 (not 22) which - presumably for licence reasons - his older brother raced once or twice

[LoLola]

Another for sale on Race Cars website just popped up.
BT21-12

http://race-cars.com/carsales/brabha...91781145ss.htm

[James Murray]

Looks like an authentic tool, but should it have a chassis plate like that, or the later aluminium style one?

[allenbrown]

The plate is not original but that doesn't mean the car isn't.

[James Murray]

Allen, I didn't mean to imply the car wasn't real, it looks very authentic, just wondered about the authenticity of the plate as I think it should be an aluminium one, making the one on it a later addition. Quite possible if its been through Operts hands I guess!!

[allenbrown]

I was attempting to agree with your previous post James, but managed to give almost the opposite impression. I must take the time to read back what I've written befoe hitting 'Post'.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Looks like an authentic tool, but should it have a chassis plate like that, or the later aluminium style one?

I have seen half a dozen Brabhams with similar plates - nothing to worry about so long as they are genuine cars.

[James Murray]

Steve, I think all pre 66, (66 inclusive) Brabhams had these plates, post 66 they went to the aluminium one. The point I was making was that it is a pre 66 type plate on that car when it should have a post 66 plate. Most likely a later addition, so it maybe a genuine car but possibly not BT21-12.

[Wayne Mitchell]

Hi everyone:
I have the original tag from BT21-16 with me at this moment and it is Alum style. My thoughts have always beens plastic stopped sometime in early 67. My new BT21Bs were always Alum. I did not have a new BT21 that I picked up at Webridge. That car looks too original to be a copy. It may be retagged or 4 cars before the tag I have in 1967.
Cheers, Keep the record flowing. Wayne Mitchell

[James Murray]

Hi Wayne

How's the BT2 coming on?

Looking at the plate on the BT21 I'm convinced it's been added retrospectively. Apart from the reasons previously mentioned, if it was a genuine plate wouldn't it read f3-67-12 like on all the plastic plate cars not BT21-12. Addes to this I think its too big to be a genuine plastic plate.

As you say however the car is far to authentic for it not to be genuine.

[allenbrown]

The chassis numbering style changed with the production BT21s from F2-xx-66 to BT21-xx. The plates may have changed at the same point or possibly 12 months earlier.

A restorer showed me a replica pre-66 plate recently and although it wasn't made from the correct material (bakelite not plastic of course), it was visually extremely convincing. There are of course some very simple tests to tell plastic from bakelite.

[275 GTB-4]

Chasps - Wikipedia say:

"Traffolyte was a brand name for multi-layered, plastic sheets suitable for engraving. Each layer was a different colour so engraved letters or shapes would be a different colour from the unengraved portions. Thus it could be used for name tags, labels and signs.

It has become a generic term. Sometimes spelt 'traffolite'."

Don't know why they call it plastic, because that was not a common term for it when engraving Traffolyte labels was king.

For Bakelite Wikipedia say:

"The name Bakelite was originally a brand, trademark name, but it is currently considered a generic term for all phenolic resin products, though some phenolic products besides Bakelite are brand-named."

The BT21 label looks to be a later plastic rendition, although thats only a guess, based on the fact that older bakelite tended to chip after many years once it had been engraved. Could be the real deal - easy to test.

[Al Murray]

FYI,

Tim Osborne's BT21-9 has the exact same tag on it and looks to be original.

Looks like the change was made between 12 and 16.

AL Murray
BT21-? AM177

[allenbrown]

Does Tim Osbourne's tag say BT-21-9 or BT21-9 or BT-21-09 or BT21-09?

[Al Murray]

Allen,

The tag reads: BT-21-9

AL

[allenbrown]

Thanks for that.

I have never seen MRD put a hyphen between the 'BT' and the number that follows it but this is fairly common practice in the US (google for Lola T-190 instead of T190, Penske PC-6 instead of PC6, Ralt RT-4 instead of RT4, Shadow DN-2 instead of DN2 or Williams FW-07 instead of FW07 and you'll see the references are almost always American).

My suspicion is that these two plates (BT-21-9 and BT-21-12) have a common source and that it's not MRD.

Now of course Ted Walker will pop up and tell me that I'm talking rubbish

[Chris Townsend]

A little update on BT21Bs

Brendan McInerney's late 1968 car is described in AS 11.10.68 p.36 as 'ex Dave Williamson'. This P&M car was then run by McInerney's RCI set up in 1969 for him and Bev Bond, then sold to Geoff Friswell in 1970.

The chassis numbers for the three P&M cars are given by AS at the start of 1968:
1 Keens
3: Epton
4: Williamson

Epton's car is wrecked mid season, though rebuilt - perhaps for Keith Jupp or else Jim Hardman, but it looks as though 1 [to Matts Bystrom in 1969] and 4 can be accounted for now.
BT21B-4 was owned by David Philipson and run in Northern libre races in the late 70s.

Chris