[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[Adam43]

He thing about that is the superstar driver. Few people are good enough to do that. If they were they would be a superstar. The chance of two being in F1 at the same time are low, and for them to be in the same team.

Let’s think about how many times that has happened. Prost and Senna. And, er,…

(actually there are other examples, but you get the point.

[chillibowl]

poor Massa...his story would have been so different had the Glockdog not pulled over during those closing stages of the Brazillian GP. what could have been right?

[Adam43]

The old ones are the best.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

poor Massa...his story would have been so different had the Glockdog not pulled over during those closing stages of the Brazillian GP. what could have been right?

Felipe was not the same driver after he was struck in the head by the Brawn spring, it took something off the edge he had prior to the incident.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Nor is Bottas by most people.... I would perfectly happily equate Bottas with Rubens and Felipe. Eddie - perhaps not.

The point I was making is no other no.1 driver would put up with the situation Bottas is in. I should have been clearer.

A top line driver certainly wouldn't put themself in his position. Not through choice anyway?

Once said driver works out which way the wind is blowing they normally exit as soon as convenient. Unless of course there are no other options!

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by wnut

Felipe was not the same driver after he was struck in the head by the Brawn spring, it took something off the edge he had prior to the incident.

He says it didn't really affect him. I think he just struggled against the mighty Alonso

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

He says it didn't really affect him. I think he just struggled against the mighty Alonso

Massa and Kimi both played no.2 to Alonso. It's the same with Bottas now.

It's not difficult to understand. If it isn't written in a contract, sttategies and on track performances will favour one driver. It isn't a coincidence that it ends up being the quicker or better paid driver.

[S griffin]

Exactly, it’s very rare in these days of super reliability to have a contracted number 1 and number 2. It just happens as the season takes shape that they concentrate on the driver who has a better chance of the title

[chunterer]

But it's clear that there are a few teams with contracted no.1s. It's just those teams are reluctant to admit it.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But it's clear that there are a few teams with contracted no.1s. It's just those teams are reluctant to admit it.

Do you have any evidence for this?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Do you have any evidence for this?

Why would I need evidence? It's quite blatant in some cases.

[Adam43]

You get the same outcome with two inputs. It could be that there is a defined no.1 and 2. Or it could be that Hamilton is just better. A lot better. Same result.

It is unlikely that when you have one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport that the other driver in the team is able to match them.

It is also clear that in many sports that the best seem to also get the rub of the green. A team is also more likely to repeat and do what brings them success and this will favor the one that brings success and it may enhance the natural superiority the driver has even if the team is at pains to make sure it is fair. Whatever fair means.

It is true that Hamilton is no.1 in that he is ahead, has more success and finishes in P1 more. It is true that is you rank the drivers in the team he is no.1.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Why would I need evidence? It's quite blatant in some cases.

Like who?

[Aysedasi]

Er, Hamilton.....

Er, Verstappen.....

Er, (probably) Leclerc.....

[crmalcolm]

I think getting paid 3x the salary of your team-mate is a good indication of status within a team:

Mercedes Lewis Hamilton $30m (£21.9m)
Mercedes Valtteri Bottas $10m (£7.3m)
Red Bull Max Verstappen $25m (£18.25m)
Red Bull Sergio Perez $8m (£5.84m)
McLaren Daniel Ricciardo $15m (£10.95m)
McLaren Lando Norris $5m (£3.65m)
Aston Martin Sebastian Vettel $15m (£10.95m)
Aston Martin Lance Stroll $10m (£7.3m)
Alpine Esteban Ocon $5m (£3.65m)
Alpine Fernando Alonso $20m (£14.6m)
Ferrari Carlos Sainz Jnr $10m (£7.3m)
Ferrari Charles Leclerc $12m (£8.76m)
AlphaTauri Yuki Tsunoda $0.5m (£0.365m)
AlphaTauri Pierre Gasly $5m (£3.65m)
Alfa Romeo Kimi Raikkonen $10m (£7.3m)
Alfa Romeo Antonio Giovinazzi $1m (£0.73m)
Haas Mick Schumacher $1m (£0.73m)
Haas Nikita Mazepin $1m (£0.73m)
Williams Nicholas Latifi $1m (£0.73m)
Williams George Russell $1m (£0.73m)

And so Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Alonso, Gasly and Raikkonon would appear to be (contractually) the number one driver in each team.

Norris seems to buck the trend.....

[Aysedasi]

The Ricciardo/Norris comparison is (currently at least) insane..... If I were Lando, I'd be going on strike!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think getting paid 3x the salary of your team-mate is a good indication of status within a team:

You get the same outcome with two inputs. It could be that Hamilton is just better. A lot better. Same salary difference.

Actually not. Hamilton seems relatively cheap there!

I forget what we are arguing about.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The Ricciardo/Norris comparison is (currently at least) insane..... If I were Lando, I'd be going on strike!

Was a bit surprised he re signed for that but he is young, the stability/development will help, McLaren on the up, and he will get his due next contract round.

But my personal feeling is that the team truly favour him/is their future.

[Richard C]

What exactly does it mean to be "#1 driver". I expect it can vary quite a bit from team to team.

* You get preference in parts (is that really much of a thing anymore?)
* You get to some say (including veto) in partner selection (which drivers do you think have a contract clause that gives them veto power over their teammate selection?!? )
* You get priority on strategy (yes)
* You get general priority when it comes to team backing. (yes)

I am sure there is a long line of potential items that might be in the list above. My personal opinion is that the comment on salary is a key indicator. Being able to command a larger salary means they have higher expectations on delivery. Be it points for WCC/WDC all the way down to PR/marketing value.

I also think teams are very pragmatic. They may start the season either supporting the drivers equally, or more likely with a preference (i.e. strategy calls, etc.) for their #1 driver. But if someone is the #1 driver and they are not delivering results and their teammate is. I fully expect that the teams will support whoever is making it work on track. The deeper into the season, this situation goes, the more obvious that pivot will be.

As people point out, the situation at McLaren is interesting. Ricciardo is struggling and Norris is delivering. I suspect McLaren expected a bit of a learning curve for Ricciardo, but for that to not be as bad as it has been. McLaren has asked (rightly so) for Ricciardo to move over for Norris. I don't think they have asked Norris to ruin his race to move Ricciardo up. I think the early contract extension for Norris (I assume McLaren had an option to extend and decided to pull the trigger ASAP) should show they have huge confidence in Norris. Norris is also in a car that can run at the front. I think he is smart to re-sign (even if they get him for cheap) get more experience and maybe continue to visit the podium on a regular basis. It should buff up his value (as perceived by other team bosses who may want him in the future)

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What exactly does it mean to be "#1 driver". I expect it can vary quite a bit from team to team.

Exactly.

It can just mean that you are the better driver end up ahead more often than not and hence end up in all the photos and are the most important for a team.

Or it can mean you are the only focus of the team get all he testing, bets bits, choices of strategy and car preferences.

Or anywhere in-between. Yet we see it considered to be the same and used very simplistically.

It never means, in isolation, the other driver is purposely hampered by the team to make them look bad.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It never means, in isolation, the other driver is purposely hampered by the team to make them look bad.

Agreed with one or two odd exceptions... specifically if you happened to find yourself working for Flav.

Always thought it was telling how he never placed Webber next to Alonso as that 2nd seat next to FA always had that feel of sacrificial lamb to it.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Agreed with one or two odd exceptions... specifically if you happened to find yourself working for Flav.

Or being Perry McCarthy

Always thought it was telling how he never placed Webber next to Alonso as that 2nd seat next to FA always had that feel of sacrificial lamb to it.

So Webber to Renault was never on

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

But my personal feeling is that the team truly favour him/is their future.

Rightly so, IMO.

[Adam43]

It’s a joke. And why I can’t support him. He’s driven well and so the team like him. He’s no.1. Remember when they asked Dani to pull over just because he was quicker and could maximise their chances in the race.

Wait a second, this makes no sense.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

So Webber to Renault was never on

Sadly no...but im happier to have the joke.

One of the best tentenths memes!