video of dp's testing. look sooooo slow

[independent]

http://www.grandamerican.com/jan_test_videos.html


looks like the Porsches are running close to the dp's. Hope they look faster in person or Grand Am is going to sink fast.

[Patrick B]

The Rolex series is growing not sinking.

Oh and the DP's are running 8 seconds a lap faster then the GT class- http://www.grandamerican.com/race_re...w_prac312.html

[SALEEN S7R]

Yep they are - because the GT cars have smaller restrictors than last year. Not sure how much power they are lacking over last year but it is a considerable ammount. Last year the GT class cars were lapping at 1:52.7 http://www.daytona24hr.com/Standings/pratice30th1.asp So far this year the best time is a 1.54.7 - as u can see its a big differnce. If the GT regs had been left the way that they were for this year Ive no doubt the cars would be doing 1:51's maybe even lower. For comparissan the fastest DP car to date has set 1:48.311. Now just imagine if full ACO GTS cars were racing - theyd wipe the floor with the DP's. Remember GA dosent want a repeat of last year with AJR winning, thats why they have less power and a even smaller fuel tank....

GA for my money is defintly sinking, it used to be a great series and now is just a shadow of its former self, a shame. GA needs to get some better management I think.

[dretceterini]

G/A is a STRICTLY north American series with it's own set of rules. It has NOTHING to do with LeMans, the ELMS, or IMSA. Time comparisons are irrelevent.

I really don't care if cars turn 1:30 or 2:00 at Daytona; what I don't like about DSPs is their looks.

[Liz]

If they are ugly, slow and dangerous, then the only advantage they have is that they are cheap?

Couldn't they just buy those Thunder Cars the guys race on the dirt oval at Barrie Speedway? Those are cheap, but they are not slow or dangerous and some are quite good looking.....

[billnchristy]

How do you figure they are dangerous?

The cars are not particularly fast. They lack downforce and therefore grip. They do put out pretty high speeds on the banking (190 or so) but on the infield I am not suprised to see them out braked by a Porsche or Ferrari, they are about equal in braking and acceleration.

The Porsches have twin 29.5mm restrictors, LMGTs have 30.5mm restrictors for the same weight car.

The racing I saw at Mt. Tremblant was exciting, like em or hate them, even with only 25 or so cars on the track I saw action on every lap from the place I was standing...for 6hrs straight!

They really do look better in person too, but the diehard haters of their looks would still probably at least dislike them...

The cars sound very good, an unrestricted porsche engine is an evil sound.

There has only been one "serious" accident and that was Dyson at the Glen. He was not injured so there is really no basis for the dangerous statement.

[Patrick B]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
For comparissan the fastest DP car to date has set 1:48.311. Now just imagine if full ACO GTS cars were racing - theyd wipe the floor with the DP's.

Funny you say that considering your user name. The Fastest lap for a Saleen S7R at Daytona is 01:48.565 2002 Test days. As far as i know thats under the same rules as the ACO.

From the IMSA forum the fastest lap for the C5R at the Daytona test days is 1:48.128.

So not only are the DP's beter looking, safer and a beter price... there also as fast. Or faster as the case is when comparing the DP's to S7R and the GTS-R Viper.

[Megatron]

I think Grand Am's thinking of making some parts univerisal or spec might have gone far oto far. Yes, no one is going to go crazy if a few inside componets are spec and yes some poeple don't care what is on the inside of a car anyway, but that thinking has given them the abilty to think that fans are so dumb they don't care what any part of the car or the performance matters.

Do people care what the roof line looks like? YES!! The aero package? YES!!! Enough speed so they don't look like they are under caution? YES!!!

But what do we know? Were just the general public. Mark Laughoff and Roger Edmenton have developed a formula that is 101% perfect and doesn't need to be changed for 10 years.

I don't know but if some of the most loyal supporters of Grand Am (ie Jack Baldwin) say the cars need more power, and a major part of the fan base wants more speed, maybe...just maybe you might do something.

Of course, this is from the same group that said they weren't interested in the typical sports car fan. Great PR. Make mad one potenial fan base right off the bat. You listen to some of the quotes of Roger Edmenton and you wonder why they don't put a muzzle on him? He either goes on and on about the GT40 or creates PR diasters by alienating one section of fans.

Roger, perhaps a better quote would have been While we want to continue to appeal to our existing fan base, we would also like to reach new audiences.

That might have been slightly better than essentially saying "watch something else, were not interested with what you think".

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Patrick B
Funny you say that considering your user name. The Fastest lap for a Saleen S7R at Daytona is 01:48.565 2002 Test days. As far as i know thats under the same rules as the ACO.

From the IMSA forum the fastest lap for the C5R at the Daytona test days is 1:48.128.

So not only are the DP's beter looking, safer and a beter price... there also as fast. Or faster as the case is when comparing the DP's to S7R and the GTS-R Viper.

Nope, in 2003 the GTS rules for GA were not the same as in the ALMS or FIA series, I beleive the engine the Saleen was running was 1 litre smaller - not sure. But what I do remember is that people were saying that the GTS class cars were running larger restrictors than those in the ALMS and FIA GT. Why? To stop GTS cars dominating, how much power does a GA car have? A Saleen running in ALMS/FIA GT trim has 625+ bhp - sure itd be heavier than the DP cars but last year the Porsches were going around as fast as the DP cars.

Remember - the Porsches were very close to the DP times last year - and GT class cars are LOTS slower than GTS machinery. A GTS car in ALMS/FIA GT trim would outpace a DP easy.

One last thing - take a Saleen S7R for example and compare the Areodynamics to that of a DP car - I think u will find it is better areodynamically and has a lot more power in ALMS/FIA GT spec. DP cars are ugly and slow, sure they can beat Porsche 911 GT3 cars - just - if the Porsches run insanely large restrictors that is. Otherwise the Porsche would win easily - just like in 2003.

[Patrick B]

Heres the Roger Edmonsons interview-

http://www.ashcom.homestead.com/Rogeredmondson.html

Andrew-
Who do you see as the people that will be the fan base for Grand-Am? Who do you feel will be the ones to look at the product you are offering and say, “I’m interested, I want to get involved, I want to find about this’?

Roger-
“I think by and large it is anybody who has any interest in motorsports. I have been misquoted out of context that I don’t care about the traditional sportscar fan. In fact it wasn’t a total misquote, it was just taken out of context. What I really said was we weren’t concerned about them, and our lack of concern comes from two areas. First, the type of racing the traditional sportscar fan has shown a preference for and interest in is still there. In other words there is nothing we are doing to destroy anything or take away anything from the interest that that fan base already has.

“Secondly, we are not concerned – and I don’t mean we don’t care about them – I mean we are not concerned in this regard: If our races are entertaining, they will come. And so we are not necessarily positioning ourselves to that market that has traditionally been proven to be relatively small. Instead we are trying to make a program that is easier to understand for a larger number of motorsports fans.”

Andrew-
Are you saying you are presenting a new product so you are looking for a new audience, one that won’t draw from the followers of other series?

Roger-
“Let me put it this way, there is no reason why a person who enjoys an ALMS event would not enjoy a Grand-Am event. OK? If they like sportscar racing they ought to like what we are doing. OK? But, by the same token, there are many reasons why people who are casual fans of NASCAR or IRL or CART might not enjoy an ALMS event because of the complexity of it. It requires a certain commitment to understand the classes and the equipment and the nuances. We sportscar / road racing types consider ourselves in many ways to be superior – at least that is what people say on the message board – to NASCAR fans. Part of that is because we know the secret code and we understand all the nuances and special things about our sport. But to the average man in the streets, sometimes that sort of thing is a barrier to his getting involved rather than something that will bring him in.

Makes sense to me.

[independent]

Good lord, Grand Am guys act like its a life or death struggle here. My original post simply stated that from a visual standpoint, based on the video shot and approved by Grand Am, the DP's were certainly not overpowering the lesser classes. As someone who is used to ACO prototypes threading the slower needle in overcoming GT and GTS cars, this stood out like a sore thumb. They seemed to beracingthe GT and Cup cars, not just blowing by as in the past.

I have a friend who is a webmaster and he made a valid point to me today. The volume of press releases from Grand Am in the past couple of days has literally forced him to block the e-mail from them. Not that he minds posting legitimate news but the PR department at Nascar has gone crazy to try and raise awareness for the 24. But no attempt at Nascar cross-promotion has surfaced. No major promos airing on Fox or whoever concerning the Nextel Cup drivers that will be basically doing a favor to whomever. And from what I've read, this is just "fun" to them. I'm not sure I would want Tony Stewart taking my racecar out for "fun" when I wrote the check for the car.
It may be just me but I have a funny feeling that with the Nextel drivers out to grandstand and have a good old time with each other, mixed with the traditional sportscar drivers who are very serious and have careers to think about, this years race could turn into a very, very bad situation for the teams that are serious about winning. In the big picture, the speed of the DP's has little to do with the success of the series. Its whether or not there is a fan base to support it that matters. So far there is not, but Nascar, France, or whoever you choose to say is calling the shots, there had better be soon. Let me say that again.....there had better be soon. The powers that be have given Grand Am very specific marching orders concerning expectations beginning with the 24.
I honestly pray that it runs smoothly for the teams that take it seriously, but I have a very bad feeling about the potential for a fiasco with the high paid, spoiled rotten Nextel guys mixed in. I think that the ends will not justify the means when it is all over.

[Patrick B]

Read the date again Saleen S7R. That time is from 2002 not 2003.

If the DP's ran in the full ALMS series next year they would likly get a couple Overall podiums... Considering the only fast & reliable LMP next year will be the Champion R8.

[SALEEN S7R]

Okay Patrick - sorry my mistake. But in 2003 if the GTS cars were running to the same technical regulations as 2002 they would be about 1.5 seconds faster than the 2002 time id guess. Thats what normally happens, either way the GTS cars would still have lapped faster than 2002 - by at least 5 tenths, up to 1.5 secs a lap faster therefore being faster than the DP cars anyway.

[Patrick B]

Independent, From your sig i know your Snap and Pop from the Speed forum so i know exactly what you intended by starting this tread.

[SALEEN S7R]

Oh patrick, by the way just done a bit of digging and found that the best time for a GTS car in 2002 recorded a 1.46.704 - thats when ALMS/FIA GT regulations were in place. http://www.grand-am.com/events2002/t...ned_final.html Unlike now that is, in 2003 GA penalised the Saleen and other GTS class machinery and in 2004 banned it. But anyway as Ive said GTS cars running ALMS/FIA GT spec are faster than DP cars.

[billnchristy]

Yup he is, just as I suspected.

Once again, as has been beat down in the past, the idea isnt to reference them to cars they dont race against.

Fact is, even with more restrictions the DPs are faster this year than last.

Also, as for the Porsches, I didnt know that a mm difference was huge...silly me for being American I guess...just cant get that darn metric system down!!

I do agree that maybe Roger isnt the worlds greatest speaker out there, if you really look at what he is saying instead of shutting him off the first time he makes you mad though it starts to make sense.

As i said before, they are racing on the infield...just as I have seen a Prodrive ferrari outbrake a prototype before too...it happens...deal with it.

[independent]

He is a friend of mine but I don't necessarily share his views. I tend to be more open to new things. Whoever you are I don't know you but I feel that my points are valid. To suggest that DP's could "win a podium or two" is ludicrous and you know this. The 911 GT3 RSR is a completely different ball game than what is running in Grand Am this year. And even without the LMP1 class, I doubt a DP would run with Dyson or 575GTC Ferraris, let alone the many additions we will see in the next three months before the series begins a new season. To suggest that I am "starting something" when I simply stated a reasonable observation on the events of the last fews days is absurd.
Please refrain from personal attacks in the future and stick to the message, not the messenger.

[billnchristy]

Oh yeah, just as stated in the FIA SCC post, do we really want NASCAR popularity in our road racing series, just like no one wants F1 popularity.

I personally like being able to talk to drivers and get close enough to smell the cars after a run, I dont want to be locked behind a cage while various drunk fans threaten the driver they "hate"

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by billnchristy
Oh yeah, just as stated in the FIA SCC post, do we really want NASCAR popularity in our road racing series, just like no one wants F1 popularity.

I personally like being able to talk to drivers and get close enough to smell the cars after a run, I dont want to be locked behind a cage while various drunk fans threaten the driver they "hate"

Whilst I agree that with F1 u cant get near the drivers and that is a bad thing, look at the good things with having a huge fan base, stuff like LIVE TV coverage for the full race, not just 1hr like we get here of FIA GT, personally Id love to see the LMES/FIA GT become as popular as F1 - probably wont ever happen but it would be nice.

As for Drunken fans threatening to kill drivers, that dosent happen here in Europe, well at least not GB. Other than NA$CAR im not sure it happens in any other series in the USA either. But then if u ask me NA$CAR isnt a real racing series. Its a circus, its WWE (World wrestling entertainment) re badged.

[Patrick B]

If your not Snappy then my bad. But starting a thread saying GA is sinking isn't helping your image...

In 2003 there where 5 DP's at the test.
In 2004 there where 19 DP's at the test.

Almost 400% growth in one year. Plus there are about 3 more confirmed cars on the way in the next couple months.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Patrick B
If your not Snappy then my bad. But starting a thread saying GA is sinking isn't helping your image...

No but sitting there saying that GA is in great health and its what people want to see, as opposed to other series isnt helping yours either. GA I think most people here would agree at the moment is in a bad state, why not do a poll? That way we really know what people think with regards to GA's health.

Sure Independants opening post didnt exactly do a lot to help the rift between GA/ALMS fans but to be fair, in comparissan to the ALMS he is correct. All he was doing was stating his opinion, sure might not have been the PC thing to say but its his opinion, he is correct u have attacked the poster and not the post, u have already admitted u thought he was someone who he may not be, so ur perception of him wasnt the same as of perhaps a member u dont know from other boards, and that made u defensive.

This is why forums are here - so people can debate other points of view, there is no right or wrong, just that a majority thinks one thing, a minority thinks the other and id say that u Patrick and ur other GA friends are in the minority at this point in time. A bit like me with my view on the Spa 24hrs being the best Endurance sportscar race in the world, where as most people think LM is.

[billnchristy]

Yeah i agree that NASCAR isnt real racing either, and that is the only place that that kind of junk happens, i just dont want to see it happen to my precious road racing either!!

As for DPs getting podiums...ive stated before that they would probably make excellent LM2 cars using the Porsche flat 6 or a Ferrari 360 engine, but a podium would be limited to that class byfar...although they could probably outlast an MG they would never come near their speed.

[Patrick B]

I judge a series health buy the teams ability to field cars without going in debt and if the series is paying its bills.

GrandAm is looking strong to me. Lots of new teams coming to GA from other series. No reports of GA having money problems. The track's seem to want GA back, so they must be making money off Rolex events. The fan base might not be huge but huge crowds don't mean the series are stong.

Just look at CART and the WRC. Both have huge fan base's but there both having problems paying bills and securing tracks and dates because of money problems...


As far as my coment that DP's could get podiums in the ALMS i base it on lap times and reliablity. The DP's are faster then all the GT cars and as reliable. The DP's are about even with the GTS and LMP2 cars on lap times. The DP's are more reliable then the LMP2 cars. The DP's are way more reliable then the R&S LMP1's and the "MGs".

So id expect the DP's would qualify around 10th at most ALMS event's. At the end of most race's the only "top" cars that run trouble free are the Champion R8 the C5R's and maybe one of the MG's. The C5R got at least 1 4th spot last year and with Joest gone the would have got 3rd. If the DP's are as fast(depends on the track) and reliable as the C5R's the DP's would be as possible for a DP to get that 3rd...

If that makes any sense :-)

[independent]

The DP's are more reliable then the LMP2 cars. The DP's are way more reliable then the R&S LMP1's and the "MGs".

Patrick B, I have no problem with this observation as long as there is objective data to back it up. However to the best of my knowledge, outside of last years 24, DP's have never been "tested" for reliability in anything over a 6 hour sprint ( I exclude last years 24 because that certainly would not be helpful to your case.)They will be 'bloodied" for the first time in a month, then we will see. 24 hours is quite different from running test laps. As I always say, right now, NOBODY knows.

The other thing is that I sense your genuine enthusiasm for Grand Am racing. This is admirable but I would suggest a sense of reality about it. DP's were designed to be slow by comparison, low tech by comparison, and performance limited by comparison to ACO series cars. And from what Mr. Edmonson has said, this will not change for a long time. The underlying reason for this series is close racing and inexpensive cars for privateers who cannot afford to compete at the ALMS level. All the wishing in the world will not change the reality of the performance of the DP's. I would hope that as a fan of Grand Am that you concentrate on the things that the DP's are capable of realizing like concentrated fields during a race, safe speeds, and the ability of less financed, less experienced drivers to realize their goal of competing in a series designed for them. You should perhaps direct your animosity towards Grand Am if the performance of DP's bothers you, or find a new series to enjoy. As far as I know, no ACO fan on this board is responsible for writing the rules for Grand Am nor the diminished returns on the Daytona test times. If you want them to go faster or compete with ALMS cars head to head, e-mail Mr. Edmunson with your thoughts.

[Patrick B]

Im happy with the performance of the DP's. Nothing wrong with 1:48's around Daytona.