Can Webber overtake slower cars?

[OZ_HCR32]

Be critical but fair ppl.

Because i am Australian i was always pretty critical of Webber when he first arrived on the scene. It wasnt until he went up against Nick, a driver i rate highly, that i slowly became a believer.

But watching last nights race it dawned on me. I dont recall Webber ever overtaking a car for a solid points position. He tangled with Fisi in Malaysia '05. Struggled and was messy/lucky in climbing on to the final podium spot at Monaco.

I recall so many GPs at Williams where he was caught behind the Toyotas and couldnt clear them despite having better car speed. And again last night. He seemed to have more car speed then Fisi but did nothing about it.

It wasnt until DC rolled onto the scene and pulled a nice clean move on Fisi did Webber get on with it.

He is a great qualifier, dedicated, and defends his position very well. but he doesnt seem to be able to climb up the classifications even with a slight edge in car pace.

So, say what you mean, mean what you say. And dont be mean saying it. But im thinking Webber has a bit to learn in overtaking for points positions.

..oh, and one last thing. He got past Fisi with the fuel cover problem...so i dont think its a huge leap to think he had the faster car during the earlier laps

[marzF1rocks]

I reckon that red bull has got something extra this year...

[zac510]

I guess yesterday the car was the 4th fastest (team) and Webber put it up there in 8th in the Qualifying. As 4th fastest team it was going to be difficult to improve whereas from the back you can improve.

[Adam43]

I think this thread would be more suited to Fisi! While I don't recall any great Webber moves, I don't get the impression he can't overtake. It is just hard. zac510 is right, if you start high up you don't get the chance. Although in the last race DC continued past Webber.

[Smurfer]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I think this thread would be more suited to Fisi! While I don't recall any great Webber moves, I don't get the impression he can't overtake. It is just hard. zac510 is right, if you start high up you don't get the chance. Although in the last race DC continued past Webber.

Webber let DC past due to his fuel flap problem.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Smurfer

Webber let DC past due to his fuel flap problem.

Yes, and then DC continued to make progress.

[FPV GTHO]

Well apparently the Renaults had tyre problems, so possibly by the time DC then Webber got past Fisi, it was largely due to Fisi unable to solidly defend because of the tyres. Theres probably a few factors at play there

On a side note, according to ITV, the Ferrari as a car isnt that great at overtaking, whilst the BMW seems to be great in traffic.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I think this thread would be more suited to Fisi!

Did you miss Fisi's pass on Rubens on Sunday?

[Rick]

spot on FPV - in the first stint Kubica/Fisi/Webber were all running quickly line astern. It was only after the first pit stops that Fisi really struggled - the Renault was good until then.

"I made a good start and the pace was really good in the first stint – I was clearly lighter than Kubica in front, but he was holding me up which meant I couldn’t build a gap to the cars behind me. Then I struggled in the second stint, as the rear tyres went away very quickly" (Fisi)

Webber very rarely passes slower cars because he is very rarely behind slower cars! DC's great race was almost a copy of Rosberg's last year - its a great track to get to the back in a fairly racey car and drive through. Might be an idea to start some races at the back!

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

He tangled with Fisi in Malaysia '05. Struggled and was messy/lucky in climbing on to the final podium spot at Monaco.

I recall so many GPs at Williams where he was caught behind the Toyotas and couldnt clear them despite having better car speed.

..oh, and one last thing. He got past Fisi with the fuel cover problem...so i dont think its a huge leap to think he had the faster car during the earlier laps

1) Fisi tangled with him, and I'm not sure how he was lucky in Monaco - he should have been second!

2)Most people have succumbed to the "Trulli train" - depends on which track you are at to have any chance of getting by.

3) see Fisi's quote!


in three races so far this year Webber hasn't missed a beat - 3 Top Ten Quals, Melbourne and Bahrain on track for fairly comfortable 7th places (as good as anyone else can get, considering the top 6 have been bullet proof) and tyre issues/choices in Malaysia.

No wonder he sounded so fed up last night!

It is a real shame we don't get live coverage in Oz, because when you watch with live timing as well it is a lot more apparent what is going on.

Even Martin was starting to feel sorry for him!

[OZ_HCR32]

Perhaps using the weekends GP as an example is a little short sighted. But i want to believe. But thinking back i cant remember Webber pulling any good moves on another capable car.

I use to dig out an old tape i had of Webber at Phillip Island in a FF in the wet. He was the class of the field and walked away from the entire field. So he no doubt is a talent...and the more i see i dont doubt his place in F1.

But im getting the feeling its an area where he needs to improve. He was a little impulsive and keen to get a result in 2005. he came out in 2006 and drove far better, even though the car was unreliable.

For the time being im thinking this may be an area he has to work on. Had he been in Nick's car on the weekend i couldnt see Webber pulling that move on Alonso.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Yes, and then DC continued to make progress.

Webber did pass Fisi about 2 laps after DC did (with his fuel flap still up). It was during the ad break and ITV didn't replay it.

Good to see the RBR with some pace from either driver. May more come in Europe.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Yes, and then DC continued to make progress.

Albeit without a huge aero problem.

[Ryan_Briscoe1]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Be critical but fair ppl.

Because i am Australian i was always pretty critical of Webber when he first arrived on the scene. It wasnt until he went up against Nick, a driver i rate highly, that i slowly became a believer.

But watching last nights race it dawned on me. I dont recall Webber ever overtaking a car for a solid points position. He tangled with Fisi in Malaysia '05. Struggled and was messy/lucky in climbing on to the final podium spot at Monaco.

I recall so many GPs at Williams where he was caught behind the Toyotas and couldnt clear them despite having better car speed. And again last night. He seemed to have more car speed then Fisi but did nothing about it.

It wasnt until DC rolled onto the scene and pulled a nice clean move on Fisi did Webber get on with it.

He is a great qualifier, dedicated, and defends his position very well. but he doesnt seem to be able to climb up the classifications even with a slight edge in car pace.

So, say what you mean, mean what you say. And dont be mean saying it. But im thinking Webber has a bit to learn in overtaking for points positions.

..oh, and one last thing. He got past Fisi with the fuel cover problem...so i dont think its a huge leap to think he had the faster car during the earlier laps

I dont think its fair to just single out Webber. I think most of the drivers are finding it tough to overtake with the current cars, look at kimi, fisi and others. Those who do take huge risks and it doesn't always pay off normally cost them their race, like massa. If you look at others in bahrain rosberg went off the track numerous times due to attempted overtaking. DC did do a good job this race, but go back to aussie gp he nearly killed Wurz trying a move.

[dsg]

This will probably get flamed but I think MW doesn't pass many cars in the race because he already passed them in qualifying. More often than not faster cars that did not qualify as well pass him in the race.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by zac510

Good to see the RBR with some pace from either driver. May more come in Europe.

quite right there, and if anyone had said - just before Melbourne after the testing - that RBR would be the quickest of the "midfield" by now, you would have been certified! With a seamless gearbox coming up it will be interesting to see how (and for how long ) they progress .

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by dsg

This will probably get flamed but I think MW doesn't pass many cars in the race because he already passed them in qualifying. More often than not faster cars that did not qualify as well pass him in the race.

Good point. Webber is often a good qualifier. He has on occasions got the car higher than perhaps it should be, only to sucumb to the faster cars in the race.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Rick

1) Fisi tangled with him, and I'm not sure how he was lucky in Monaco - he should have been second!

I tend to agree with the Fisi clash. But in that isntance i think Webber had such a speed advantage he could have been a little more patient. But your damned if you do...etc

I wasnt saying he was lucky to get 3rd. He deserved better then the he pit stop/Nick 2nd Webber 3rd scenario. My point was Nick pulled a ncie move on Alonso. Webber had a few goes at it and had a lot more trouble pulling the same move. When he did it wasnt elegant. Still Alonso would have been awake to it after Nick so thats the counter point

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

He has on occasions got the car higher than perhaps it should be.....

Be careful Peter doesn't like it when people say that.

Lets just say MW maximises the cars ability in qualifying.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

But im getting the feeling its an area where he needs to improve. He was a little impulsive and keen to get a result in 2005. he came out in 2006 and drove far better, even though the car was unreliable.

His driving got pretty ragged at times during 2005, and IMO he improved for 2006 but probably never got the chance to prove it. You have to wonder what would change if Heidfeld and Webber were paired again.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

You have to wonder what would change if Heidfeld and Webber were paired again.

At the end of 2004 i would have said Heidfeld would consistantly be quicker and race better. After seeing them paired up in 2005 i think Webber would be doing easily the equal job, most likely better. I did read in 2005 (end of the season) that Mario woudl welcome Webber into BMW, but for obvious reasons that was never going to , or now will happen

[zac510]

Slightly OT, but is Webber on a pay-per-points contract at RBR like DC was/is?

[Ryan_Briscoe1]

Originally Posted by dsg

This will probably get flamed but I think MW doesn't pass many cars in the race because he already passed them in qualifying. More often than not faster cars that did not qualify as well pass him in the race.

I also have to agree with you. Webber is an exceptional qualifier and sometimes overachieves in qualifying, which gives false hope as usually his car doesn't have race pace.

[Knowlesy]

This has always been the case throughout Webber's career. Exceptional (and I mean really exceptional) qualifier, pedestrian racer. He is feisty on the track but really doesn't get anywhere come Sunday. Strangely, he wakes for Monaco though without fail...

To be fair he had a fuel flap problem yesterday, but man DC was on fire (scary thought)!

[Ryan_Briscoe1]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

This has always been the case throughout Webber's career. Exceptional (and I mean really exceptional) qualifier, pedestrian racer. He is feisty on the track but really doesn't get anywhere come Sunday. Strangely, he wakes for Monaco though without fail...

To be fair he had a fuel flap problem yesterday, but man DC was on fire (scary thought)!

I don't think Webber is a pedestrian racer. It goes back to the point dsg made, he qualifies better then others with faster cars than his, then come the race they have more pace then him and he falls back because his car isn't up to it. Where as we see DC start from the back and overtake slower cars. Unfortunately for Webber, his exceptional qualifying ability is a gift and a curse, as it gives the misconception that he is a weak racer.

[Knowlesy]

I know there is that side to it and I agree sometimes, but it isn't always the case. The fact he gets passed by quicker cars who qualified behind matters little, because it is perhaps expected...