Historic Racing and Historic Racing Today Forum-Where is it going ? - Page 4

p261brm · 1 Sep 2009, 19:45 (Ref:2532700)

[Quote falcemob] One other thing is no one seems to ever discuss, apart from maybe Roger W, what cars they actually own or drive and are possibly too busy worrying about what other people are doing or drive.
I do not own or race [from choice] any one particular car, seem to be content with working on cars others own and drive and draw satisfaction & enjoyment from that; does this therefore mean any opinions I might express on 10/10ths on a particular marque/subject be treated as non-incidental by those who do?

Moosehead · 1 Sep 2009, 19:50 (Ref:2532709)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I think you under estimate the resourcefulness of younger people, some young guy who races in our Pre-93's was showing me how he had bypassed the ecu controlling the Honda Civic Variable timing by patching in a toggle switch (he lost me!) and remember some big gains can be had on this modern kit without even touching the engine just the managment ECU infact there is a young guy racing in our Pre-93's with a virtually stock Vauxhall Astra and he is going very well and the guy with the Honda Civic was bloody quick as well and the engine on both these cars was untouched and ran faultlessly. The biggest threat maybe this governments silly scrappage scheme!

Agree. I know a kid who has successfully grafted a Turbo onto his Fiat Cinqecento engine and is doing all the ECU re-mapping himself. And he is proving the car in club motorsport.........autotests/ autosolos etc.

Al Weyman · 1 Sep 2009, 19:51 (Ref:2532710)

I think we went past that quite a few posts ago BRM and JR said yes he definitely wanted to hear from guys like you.

Al Weyman · 1 Sep 2009, 19:55 (Ref:2532715)

I think thats one of the strengths of Modern cars Moose, they do not need all the blueprinting and crap like that these days as they leave the factory with much tighter tolerances. For example you used to HAVE to run an engine in for a 1000 miles years ago, my daughter bought a new Mitsubushi and there is no mention at all about running in just get in the thing and drive it, look how quick those cars are going in the BARC stock formulas for example.

eigger · 1 Sep 2009, 19:56 (Ref:2532716)

For me what would improve the forum is more contributions like the one pasted below which i've copied from the Oulton Park Gold Cup thread (post#51). A well written, atmospheric account of the highs and lows of a racers weekend. i'm not suggesting that this becomes the mainstay of the forum but a few such drivers accounts would liven it up and would compliment the race reports from John T by giving a diffrent perspective.

"This Ten-Tenther really enjoyed the Gold Cup, making my single-seat debut. The Elva 200 Formula Junior that I have bought was delivered to Oulton on the Friday evening by Doug Martin, it's previous owner, who very kindly offered to stay around and spanner for the weekend. I did a few laps of the paddock on Friday evening, just trying to find the gears. Unfortunately we failed the noise test and missed the first testing run, so we packed the silencer full of gauze and wadding for the second testing run - but we rather overdid it as the next reading was down at a churchmouse-like 97! And meant that the car didn't run very well, not pulling at all at the upper end of the revs, nor up the hills, but sufficiently to give me my first taste of single-seaters.

Qualifying is best forgotten, as five laps in, still running poorly I was involved in contact when a faster runner dived up the inside at the top of Clay Hill, when I thought he'd shaped up to go the other side, which would have given him the inside line for Druids. Very disappointing to have had any contact in my first race in a new crowd, after 6 years of racing in Historic Roadsports when I have had no contact whatsoever, the speed differential due to our poor running was a definite contributor as I guess he came up on me faster than either of us had imagined. Damage was very small, but I was nevertheless a bit dispirited on Saturday evening.

Sunday was much better! With such a large margin decibel-wise we removed some of the material we had put in in such haste, and the car ran much better. I ran the FJ race, really enjoyed it, had a little dice with two or three people, but was extremely nervous of getting too close to anyone else (especially after the previous day's issue). I was mightily impressed when Stuart Roach was the first to lap me, as he'd been alongside me at the back of the grid after issues in qualifying, he came past me at the entry into Druids, and I then enjoyed watching his car dance through the corner - can't imagine I'll ever manage that virtuosity even if I'm in the Elva for a few years!

We then quickly refuelled in the pitlane (thanks to Doug and my brother David) before joining the back of the grid for the Classic Racing Cars race, really enjoyable, again had a few nervous dices with other cars, all on a day when I'd expected everyone to be away out of sight by Cascades on lap 1! With a lot of oil down at the end of the race I had a little short-cutting moment at the bottom chicane, but no other dramas, and spent a good amount of time keeping out of the way of the faster cars.

The second CRC race was very wet, and I contemplated withdrawing, but decided against, then stalled approaching the grid and the car wouldn't restart with a tired battery, but I got a hefty push from the marshals into pitroad and managed to restart. Reasoning that everyone would have then gone by the time I emerged from the other end of the pitlane I figured that I might as well have a couple of 'learning laps' on my own, and in fact I stayed out till the end, again spending as much time looking in the mirrors as forwards, and generally shocked at how slippery it all felt - I was dead last, by a long way, but glad that I hadn't bottled it, it's all good experience.

All in all a great day out. One very happy Junior owner, I can wait to get out again.

Much thanks to Doug Martin, who despite being sad to see his car sold, happily stayed around to help me get the hang of it, and understand some of what I will need to know to keep it running.

If anyone has photos - Blue/Red Elva 200 No 75 - I'd love to see them.

For me Oulton is the best weekend of the year, it's a lovely circuit both on and off the track, and for both my brother and I with young toddlers it has to be the most family-friendly of all the circuits."

Al Weyman · 1 Sep 2009, 20:01 (Ref:2532717)

I'll do a report from my old tub at Rockingham next weekend if you like but will anyone really want to read it and will I just end up looking a cock because as a 1970 model yank I feel prehaps its not 'historic' or not english enough for the purists as Moosehead said earlier. :-)

grantp · 1 Sep 2009, 20:10 (Ref:2532727)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Agree. I know a kid who has successfully grafted a Turbo onto his Fiat Cinqecento engine and is doing all the ECU re-mapping himself. And he is proving the car in club motorsport.........autotests/ autosolos etc.

You can see similar situations on many a track day. The concept of engine tuning (and even chassis adjustment) is a strong as ever it was I suspect. But will that lead some of them to whatever the vision of 'Historic' will be for their era in 20 years from now? And will any of them, or their peers, look back further (and in enough numbers) to the period we think of as historic in order to support that which is current? Indeed even in the 'new historic' concept what people are doing to their cars seems to have little or no basis in homologated period developments. It's interesting ans encouraging but it's not Historic as we use he term.

I can see the potential for Sierra Cosworths, BMW M3s, etc., as future historics since they were often used broadly though the sport - racing, rallying, anything - and so have a wide appel to their time. Just like the ubiquitous Escort. Anything that is not recognisable as a world car (excluding the USA) in motorsport back then may struggle more.

The problem is I am not sure where the rest of the field come from and the other categories that make historic motor sport so broadly interesting don't all seem to have similar popular 'shapes' to promote.

I would love to proven wrong.

p261brm · 1 Sep 2009, 20:11 (Ref:2532729)

Quote:

Originally Posted by john ruston

Am obviously at a lose end this morning.

I have read and understand exactly where you are coming from John, what worries me slightly is the inclusion in the narative of 'one or two glasses' which could detract some from taking the subject of the thread too seriously. I hasten to add I do not include myself in that number.

driftwood · 1 Sep 2009, 20:17 (Ref:2532736)

i have to say that i cannot see these 1990`s saloon cars being classics!
ive skipped a few postings to pass comment
1 when i saw Ronnie in BMW 320I car in 77 i was 13 years old i kne wthan that WAS a car now i have 1

When the RS500 cars did Gp a i KNEW then they would be acar it ha staken 18 yers for folk to jump on band wagon and i owned 1 for 2 weeks i couldnt keep it a si bought 2 cars had no cash had to flog it on and YES i kick myself now even then i kne wi wouldrgert it( ok i had a margin in the car) but i would have gone down under the pier to tuch my toes to have earned the dollars to have kept thecar but no one fnacied me !
That car has been sold for 75 bags of gold 6 years after i sold it if my aunty had testicles she would be my uncle BUt yoy know a classic when you see them when new
BMWE M3 Gp A now big bucks BUT still no series to run them in but collectors buy them 3 litre CSl Gp2 cars 3 years ago 5060k for discerning owners now 150 plus cos they can be race din masters Gp 2
i recall 3.1 capri racing yet another classic

single seaters there are certain cars that are worth owning
sports cars certain cars but i have not seen anything recently ( i mean this century) and i go back to the 90`s to think about f3 3000 cars and its hard to get excited about them as classics unles syou buy the championship winning car
i kow a man in eec who bought danners 85b march f3000 for 5k ish
i said why?
he replied i wnat to own a championship winning car and now i do and it didnt cost a lot of $ !!
ok he will never race that car all the time his heart is beating

some cars are classics just by looking at them others earn that title when a race series is created they can race in
go back to teh 70`s 80`s many f1 f2 cars raced in Libre and where "just" a race car now they have own series to race in and prices go up ( some have gone stupidily high) and become desirable to run at certain events

driftwood · 1 Sep 2009, 20:23 (Ref:2532741)

Al just re read yr last post
If your yank tank was a SCCA transam car pr 1 of the Gp 2 Z28 cars that is a classic race car has race results and peigree but if yr refering to yr street car converted to a race car the number of followers will be lower than if you had the frank gardner or stuart graham brutt 33 cars
when i was young dumb I raced pre 65 i raced an Imp and i was a bit of an "ero" to Imp owners
IF i had the Frazer car I would have been a hero to many spectators and race car owners

do you recall the morris minor hillclimb car of Nick mann turtbo rover lump- that was a classic car-baby Bertha a classic yet they can never race in historics
some one nudge me when i become boring

Al Weyman · 1 Sep 2009, 20:31 (Ref:2532747)

There maybe a place for steel bodied cars like that to race next year, its being looked at. In the meantime can you honestly tell me these two fine examples of the M3 marque will not become historic classics in years to come http://www.snappyracers.com/album/23.../IMG_1162.html the onein front is actually from a famous racing stable. BTW if you are talking about what bums sat in the seat in period why is my Penske IROC racer not worth these fancy prices, simple it has nowhere to run as I said before so in fact my converted road cars are much more useful to me that that old heavyweight piece of American history.

Oh BTW I keep having people come up to me at the track saying was that so and so's Camaro I remember that so should I lie to put on a better show like I suspect so many others do? If I did a number on it and replicated Frank's SCA car and told everyone it was genuine who would know :-) Do you know what I would do if I did own the SCA car, keep it covered up and race a replica, I bet that happens as well.

Moosehead · 1 Sep 2009, 20:50 (Ref:2532755)

Al, you're IROC car would be allowed to race back home so would have thought the good ol boys would pay good money for it. Over here, well, its a long way from AppK isn't it

Quote:

Indeed even in the 'new historic' concept what people are doing to their cars seems to have little or no basis in homologated period developments. It's interesting ans encouraging but it's not Historic as we use he term.

This is what I've mentioned before about AppK. Back in the '60's not everyone modified their cars to the homologated spec, they went their own way just as these guys do nowadays. Thats what always gets my back up when people keep harking on about AppK being the only proper way it was 'in the day'.

**Tim Falce** · 1 Sep 2009, 21:04 (Ref:2532761)

Well I think the Mafia have proved it once again, you've turned the original question about where the forum is going, it's in the title, to what cars are bent, what should and should not race and your own personal agendas.

Al Weyman · 1 Sep 2009, 21:09 (Ref:2532765)

Sorry I thiought were were discussing where is historic racing going and apart from a slight diversion (very slight) the guist of the posts was to point out that yes some of us think it will continue and modern technology will be tomorrows historics and the young guys of today will hopefully carry on the tradition, is this not what is wanting to be discussed? If the thread is about discussing where this Historic forum is going well you may as well lock it up after John Turners contribution because as he said why does it have to go anywhere and basically its doing OK that seems to have answered that one for me?

**Tim Falce** · 1 Sep 2009, 21:12 (Ref:2532768)

Sorry I must have misunderstood the "Historic Racing and Historic Racing Today Forum-Where is it going" title of the thread. I thought it related to the two forums not historic racing in general and the historic racing today forum, my bad.

Carry on, I'll go back to Racers.

GORDON STREETER · 1 Sep 2009, 21:14 (Ref:2532769)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I mean all the examples I have read on here over the years from the likes of Terry, Andy Bacon etc. alleging cheating has any of them ever actually put in an official protest?

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99940&page=11

Al Weyman · 1 Sep 2009, 21:15 (Ref:2532771)

Tim I am a bit confused meself to be honest you may well be right but I thought it was a general question about where does historic racing go from here if not then I have it wrong. Maybe JR could clarify.

He did indeed Gordon, a rare thing to do it has to be said.

driftwood · 1 Sep 2009, 21:47 (Ref:2532789)

now im confused are we all in a parralell universe?
Lara Croft on TV becons

dbouwer · 1 Sep 2009, 23:06 (Ref:2532834)

Hello you all,

I'm david bouwer, and probably one of the young blood that is mentioned here. Currently I am only a spectator to historic racing, both in the Netherlands and in the UK. But I would love to join the game, the sooner the better.

I think that there will not be a real problem getting younsters like me into the historic racing scene. And then i mean like it is now, so not with the very young classics from the 90's. i've been brought to the racetrack by my father several times when I was younger still, sitting on the passenger seat of a 68 corvette. And I'm not alone in that. I see many younger people as spectator around in classic events, probably eager to join.

But, this means it needs to be accessible. so no extreme costs or something which will make basic entry difficult. A lot of discussion about racing with very standard cars and 'hotrods'. It is obviously difficult to say without any experience whatsoever, but it might be somewhat anoying to see persons with a larger wallet and the same car constantly beating the **** out of you, resulting in you driving solely at the back

In my humble opinon, summarizing, I would very much like to join, as I know of some friends of mine as well (all mid 20s) but I know I cannot compete properly with a nearly standard car, making entry financially difficult, so that might be a first step to look at in order to attract younger new participants.

Again, no experience at ALL, but I just thought you know what, i'm part of the target group that is mentioned here, that supposedly only like cars I have sit in when new (basic ford sierra, 205 diesel)
Well, I know what i find more exiting if compared to the occasional classic i've driven and the lot I've talked and dreamed to own.

GORDON STREETER · 1 Sep 2009, 23:22 (Ref:2532836)

Welcome to the forum David, Pss (do you want to buy a winning Anglia)

Steven Humphrey · 2 Sep 2009, 01:13 (Ref:2532856)

I'm a marshal /spectator and, after reading through the thread, here's my opinion on a few points mentioned-

Regarding 'fake' cars-can a spectator tell the difference between (for example) a genuine 1960's Lola T70 and a modern reproduction? I don't think so-I know I couldn't. And I'd much rather see a full grid of 'fakes' than a handful of genuine cars. I can see the purists point of view but with older cars becoming scarce surely this might be the way to keep numbers up? I do think Harvey Death's 'Mini' at the Classic was pushing things a bit far though!

Future classics-can anyone really tell what will be raced under the 'classic' banner in the future? We had a Hillman Imp when I was a kid and it was dreadful, yet there are plenty of these around racing now. I'm sure nobody saw those as future classics back then so who can say that Saxos, Corsas & Kas won't be future classics?

As for this forum-as I said earlier, I'm a marshal so most of my posts are on the marshal's forum but I do dip into other areas of tenths and find the historic one is particularly friendly and welcome to ideas/opinions from people other than drivers/owners, compared to the F1 forum especially, where I once got virtually shouted at for making a joke about Ferrari maybe being slightly in cahoots with the FIA!

I think Historic racing today is very healthy, with grid sizes almost always being far bigger than the average club grid. I hope it continues and sure it will. Most marshals I speak to favour historic meetings over others-the campsite at the Silverstone classic definately proved this!

john ruston · 2 Sep 2009, 03:33 (Ref:2532882)

The original question was a very general ,where is Historic Racing going and as an aside what happens to this particular forum.The extra question was thrown in as the people in the discussion thought that the same old bods,lags ,dominated proceedings and kept others from giving their views.These interventions usually limited the general direction of the threads with the lags banging on about their own particular preference in racing terms. A bit like this one,many well thought out pieces with valid comments and a growing mixture of detail about which few of us understand.I know nothing about V8's.B's but feel I should having read whats included in the forum for the last few years.
The idea of this one was to give the occasional a go on a wide subject with a few old lags thrown in for good measure on a broad brush basis.Hope its works but as all these things may vanish with to much detail.
I'm off to Gstaad Rally with a couple of cars this weekend but the boys will be playing with the old bags of bolts at Donington assuming we can find some tyres,and it's Tour Britannia on Monday.Interested whats happened to this one by the time I return as we are still missing some prominent posters who obviously have opinions about everything else so I feel quite let down they have missed this one.

Henrik Pedersen · 2 Sep 2009, 07:05 (Ref:2532907)

Falcemob had a point. This thread is slowly but surely drifting into something else.
Not that it matter much, but it does. Thats internet: free, no limits.
But the question remains !
The present form of historic racing will, I think, continue to attract people as racers and spectators.
Why ? My very wise wife has offen asked me that question, and I have tried to find an answer.
I am now closing fast and steadily the 60´. I saw a lot of my heroes, and done some karting in my youth. Then this historic racing comes up, about 20 years ago, and I am hooked.
I can sit in the same cars (almost) as some of my heroes did, and race the same track. YES, YES.

What I am doing ?
I am playing racing driver, that what I am doing, nothing else.
I am not by any standard a fast driver, more slow. But I enjoy every second in the paddock and on the track with friends I can play with.

And this is why historic racing will go on, having people racing and watching historic cars. We all like to go back to a time, where things wasn´t as complicated as today. This is why I love Goodwood Revival.

It happens in all kind of events, not just racing.
Some do the Waterloo battle once a year, others racing, its the same.

We play. And we go on.

Al Weyman · 2 Sep 2009, 07:07 (Ref:2532909)

Quote:

It is obviously difficult to say without any experience whatsoever, but it might be somewhat anoying to see persons with a larger wallet and the same car constantly beating the **** out of you, resulting in you driving solely at the back

So whats new? I am afraid it does not matter how tight the rules in this game the fattest wallet always will win in fact the tighter the rules often as not means the more expensive the racing especially if you want to appear 'legal' and thats a fact. Hidden rose joints in TCA's then having about 5 sets of various lengths (you are not allowing adustable rod ends you see) and hours and hours of practice laps and changing of TCA's to get the best set up and this is just one example where fat wallets can get their cars to the front and trust me I have seen this and there are many more for example spring rates and shockers and testing testing testing to get the best set up which is why IMHO some more flexibility in the rules makes for more affordable, honest racing, a quick twist to adjust camber at the circuit on the day costs nothing and will have nearly the same effect if such adjustment was allowed in the regs. Another way the fattest wallets can win is scant disregard whether they smash their cars or not (and I am afraid I have witnessed a bit of this lately from people who are old enough to know better) as they have the money to pay people to fix them, us owner driver/preparers doing it from our own pockets in our garages at home do not have the luxury and I can assure you if you are honest will slow you down a tad once you have wrecked one or two cars, so I am afraid IMHO money will always win in this sport no matter at what level.

Al Weyman · 2 Sep 2009, 07:23 (Ref:2532916)

Well according to JR Henrik Tim is not entirely correct although I can see it was worded like that originally as I think he has made it clear in his latest post that this was a broader brush than 'Just where is this forum going' so that looks OK to my eyes the posts are achieving just this, a good debate if I may say so.

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