Team Orders

[Daiboy]

Do you think it is right what Jean Todt says about the situation at Ferrari? Where the intrests of the team it seems, for outway the intrests of the sport. Of course it is the fault of the other teams for not being competative enough to challenge ferrari, but then wasnt that the case in 88 with Mclaren. Ferrari are going to score more points (with the public) if they are:-

1/ Bloody Quick
2/ Give the audience a race

LET RUBENS RACE!!!!!!! We all know that over the course of a season MS will come out ahead of his team mate, so why then cant they let them do it properly???!!! At one or two races where Rubens is quickest, why cant they let him TAKE victory? This would only show the F1 world that they not only have the worlds best... But possibly the worlds second best driver.. instead of MS and the second Ferrari driver!!!!......

Your views if you please........

[Speed]

Originally posted by Daiboy
LET RUBENS RACE!!!!!!! We all know that over the course of a season MS will come out ahead of his team mate, so why then cant they let them do it properly???!!! At one or two races where Rubens is quickest, why cant they let him TAKE victory?

Maybe letting RB racing fair and square against MS, can help his self confidence and gives Michael a run for his money finally...

[Mattracer]

Contract permitting, of course...

[Thorstone]

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change:Rubens Barrichello

[Liz]

"Do you think rigging the results of a sporting contest in advance is right or wrong?"

Why don't we ask Pete Rose?

[avsfan733]

that is a faulty anology! For that analogy to be aptly applied to this situation, we would have to be talking about MS betting on Rubens and then intentionally crashing. I find no problem with team orders as this is a sport in which it is applicable. It is the same as an American Football team putting a player into the game during the last game or two just so they can accomplish "x" yards/play/touchdowns. However, i do take issue with the Ferrari implementation of it over the past year. However Ferrari as a team is not to blame for this. Both Botched Races were the sole responsibility of the drivers making errors in judgment or execution

[racer69]

Team orders are fine, they've been around forever. They will still happen this year, just in less obvious ways.

In Ferrari's case, Rubens signed the contract, as did Eddie Irvine before him.........

[Red]

Originally posted by Daiboy
1/ Bloody Quick
2/ Give the audience a race

LET RUBENS RACE!!!!!!! We all know that over the course of a season MS will come out ahead of his team mate, so why then cant they let them do it properly???!!!

1/ They are bloody quick
2/ They do give the audience a race I supose

3/ Perhaps they do let Rubens race and it only just happens, as you said: MS comes out ahead of teammate. (strange thought...) Aaaaah, I see, you mean Austria. Ok, they lost some public-points with that one, it wasn't necessary, perhaps he wasn't the quickest that day also, etc.

But in 3 years x 17 races = 51 races it only happened twice (Rubens helping MS) so perhaps the situation of not letting Rubens race is not that critical. Actually Rubens benefit from teamnorders on more occasions I believe.

Anyway, I voted yes. It is part of the sport, it was part of the sport before and it will ber in the future despite Max' bold statements. And I certainly prefer it to be done honestly and openly rather than invoking 'gentlemen agreements', 'unscheduled pit stops', 'different strategies', and of course my favorite 'the other driver has no chance towards championship and in that case is excusable'.

[Don K]

I think team orders are part of F1.

The main goal in F1 is winning the WDC and/or WCC.
Winning races comes second.

So as long as the drivers don't deliberately hinder the oppostition, it.s OK to let the WDC/WCC prevail above the outcome of the individual races.


I don't like the fact that team orders are covered up.
The only way to expose them is to do exactly what Rubens has been doing during the last seasons: Postpone the execution of the team order as long as possible.
That's the only way to bring team orders in the open, and to start the discussion.

Remember, in the McLaren days everybody was aware of the team orders, but there was almost no discussion about it.


On the other hand, I don't have any problem with the way the Williams drivers cleverly covered up their team orders. IMO it's impossible to spot it unless you investigate their lap times and race history.

[Speed]

Originally posted by avsfan733
I find no problem with team orders as this is a sport in which it is applicable.

Not anymore dude...

[Red]

Bah, it hold no more value that the brilliant 1994 rule :Traction control is forbidden.

[Damon]

Originally posted by Red

...But in 3 years x 17 races = 51 races it only happened twice (Rubens helping MS) so perhaps the situation of not letting Rubens race is not that critical. Actually Rubens benefit from teamnorders on more occasions I believe...

That's exactly the problem Red, as Rubens actually beats Schu fair and square so infrequently, why not let him have those ones and thus stop all the hassle later in the year when Schu has to 'pay Rubens back'.

[Red]

Different points of view Damon. If Rubens actually beats Schu fair and square so infrequently, why not set your priorities right?

[Damon]

Because by allowing the course of the season to evolve naturally the 'priorities' will sort themselves out.

[Joe Machado]

Races should be won on merit only. I can understand one driver favoring the other only if the championship would be decided by winning one specific race. Even then should be up to the drivers to decide. It would take team mate relationship to a new level as they would have to rely on one another to beat the other guys.

[Daiboy]

Exactly Damon. Thank god someone who's toutched upon the reason we started watching motorsport. If a Fan supports Ferrari, fair enough. But ultimately... you have to support F1, and i dont think alot of Pro team order fans do. Id like to see any driver remember'd not by how many Victories or championships he has won, but by how many moves i can remember him pulling off, be it at the front, or midfield. Surely thats what its all about. If you had a choice of buying a video of MS 5th Title winning year or Senna's First.. which would you choose?? if you were a Ferrari fan, you'd pick 02, if you were a F1 fan...you'd pick '88

[Red]

Originally posted by Damon
Because by allowing the course of the season to evolve naturally

What did NOT evolve naturally, both in 2000 and 2002?

[Red]

Daiboy, what exactly is you point? 'How many moves' is stupid, right? The world championship is not about moves, is about points. Besides, imagine a driver who always gets pole. According to your logic he will be soon forgotten.

PS: If I had a chance to buy any of the 2 videos and I would be a newbie to the sport I'd toss a coin.

[Smokey 6 litre]

i think team orders will be hard to stop,
even with NO pit to car communication,
pre-planned subliminal messages in the pit boards set out by Ferrari before hand.
#2 car, worn down brakes, reduces speed, Schumacker 11 seconds behind, laps left 15.
or in other word, Rubens, your showing your at least an equall driver to Michael, slow down instantly and let him win, we dont want another tantrum.....

[Daiboy]

My point (RED) is that we didnt start watching Motorsport to see how many points a team or driver would score. We started to watch because we were fascinated by how a guy could control the machine he was driving and still hold off the challenge of everyone else, including the ultimate challenge his team mate. Today, the ultimate challenge is to hold off your team and their orders. I do not watch the sport to see two pretty, red, far superior machines doing demonstration laps. i watch in the hope that the guys in those cars can bloody use them as there supposed to be used...to 'Race' them. Another thing that annoyed me was at the Indy GP last year when Ralf and Montoya took each other off, Patrick head said he was annoyed it had been allowed to happen, and that it wouldnt happen again. As if it was such a terrible thing!!! My god they were racing each other...it happens, thats why we watch it. TEAM ORDERS are pathetic, and make the sport a False one.

[Red]

Originally posted by Daiboy
My point (RED) is that we didnt start watching Motorsport to see how many points a team or driver would score.

No, you're right somehow, but that's the reason why they invented the Championship, back there in 1950. See what I mean? Championship, strategy, more than 1 race counts, etc.

PS: And please cut the 'hold off your teammate by teamorders'. It's a cliche and not even an inteligent one. As I previously said, it happened twice in 51 races. And yes, Patrick is right. I was annoyed seeing Ralf and Juan taking each other out, in 2 consecutive races, let alone Patrick who actually pays the bills and is not a tifoso . THAT was not sport. Not even show. That was stupidity.

[Daiboy]

Granted i would have liked them both to have finished the race. But if you were to ask me if id prefere them to take each other out, by racing, than for them to drive around in a pretty little one-two for the whole race... you know what i mean??. MS wasnt the best racing driver in the world last year because he didnt race. he just drove a fast ferrari around for the cameras and for the 'Championship' which (with team orders) is an insult to his talent.

[EERO]

Team orders are a old and accepted part of the Sport and I have no problem with their application late in the season if the championship is at stake. In the fifth race of the season when your tteam has already has a huge lead in the Championship, I'd say it isn't sporting. There is no way to legislate against it but under those circumstances it isn't the behaviotr of Gentlemen.

[Daiboy]

Damn right EERO

[Red]

Ok, I said it was not the best decission (and it was 6th race ). But that certainly means NOT 'he didn't race last season' Daiboy.

And Eero, since Championship means more than a race, even if it was not the best but that was a logical and understandable decission.