What is the Real incentive of LMP1-L vs LMP2?

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by joeb

Exactly, and currently they are projected to be the same speed as LMP2 so something would have to change. More power? Less weight?

Let's see: DPI to LMP1-P must need:
* weight reduction for 70 Kg (900 to 830)
* new aero package
* new suspension for Michelin or Dunlop tires.
And in my point of view:
* remove the consumption fuel system on engines and put flanges admission, they must have 700 HP.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I think like you, if the DPI is successful, the ACO will take it.
Perhaps with less BOP.

I hope so too, but it won't happen soon due to ACO's current ego.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Let's see: DPI to LMP1-P must need:
* weight reduction for 70 Kg (900 to 830)
* new aero package
* new suspension for Michelin or Dunlop tires.
And in my point of view:
* remove the consumption fuel system on engines and put flanges admission, they must have 700 HP.

Or they could just say IMSA DPi is LMP1-P and not worry about any of the above. Only one team is going to use those rules anyways and I would guess DPi teams would beat them almost every go at the 24 with the rules as they stand (what % of the P2 field do you think Kolles is going to beat out this year at Le Mans?). If you give them +50 hp over the P2's and all-pro driver lineups you will get the separation between the two that you want. Also, you could cut down on P2 power a bit if the class gaps are a massive concern.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

They wouldn't. But a few manufacturers would - Mazda for sure, possibly Nissan and GM. And perhaps also others that we're unaware of.

So how does that solve the privateer problem again? The ACO is supposed to change the rules just so Mazda can play pretend at Le Mans with their engine that can't run 3 hours most days? If they were desperate for more manufacturers with no other considerations they'd just add GT3.

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

You'll have variety and manufacturer involvement which will promote the category and drive development.

In what way does introducing another sub-category of BoP controlled factory cars with restricted variety and development into things promote the privateer sub-category, variety, or development compared to P1H?

I'm going to lay this out again because some people seem to be ignoring it. THERE IS ZERO (0) PRIVATEER DPi TEAMS IN IMSA. They can't even buy one. Chevrolet has no interest in racing outside of the US other than Le Mans and they're only interested if they can run a Corvette or in the top class, and Mazda and Nissan's recent prototype endurance racing endeavours are on par with ByKolles. It would make way more sense to add Class 1 than DPi. Those cars are the right speed, better developed, exist in far larger numbers, follow engine regulations more closely aligned with LMP1, and are run by more teams with an interest in Le Mans and other ACO races.


Porsche is not leaving. They only ever left in exchange for Audi, and Le Mans is considered as integral to Porsche's brand as F1 is to Ferrari's. At absolute worst they will halt development and hand the cars over to Joest in a similar way to the late years of the 962 and R8, but there is basically no chance you won't see a Porsche in LMP1.

[Dyson Mazda]

So how does that solve the privateer problem again? The ACO is supposed to change the rules just so Mazda can play pretend at Le Mans with their engine that can't run 3 hours most days? If they were desperate for more manufacturers with no other considerations they'd just add GT3.

There have also been rumors that HPD and Mercedes have looked at the platform with a more privateer driven focus. There were also Bentley rumors for a few months and it would be the perfect platform for Alphine to step out of a Gibson branded P2. It would also be a good place for Peugeot to develop a factory team until they are ready to jump up to an affordable P1 platform.

What Alphine is doing in P2 is a bit of a joke anyways, filling their lineup with all-pro drivers and a Nissan engine and going out and crushing the class.

I still think long term the best option for IMSA is to go P1 (DPi) and P2 (Pro/Am WEC Spec P2) after the PC class dies off at the end of this year.

[MagVanisher]

Question is, will DPi be a viable option as an LMP1-P replacement? You have factory-backed teams running in IMSA with only a few true privateers competing there.

If ACO wants to choose DPi, they should tell IMSA to speed it up a little, but not as close as the LMP1 factory teams.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Question is, will DPi be a viable option as an LMP1-P replacement? You have factory-backed teams running in IMSA with only a few true privateers competing there.

If ACO wants to choose DPi, they should tell IMSA to speed it up a little, but not as close as the LMP1 factory teams.

In number of cars on the grid? Probably. With the option to compete at LM with an unchanged car, more manufacturers will probably join the 3 (soon to be) announced for IMSA.

It won't do anything for privateers but the ACO won't care about it.

[MagVanisher]

It's true that DPi will have more potential entries in the IMSA, but it'll have very few cars crossing over to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

As much as some people would like to see Action Express and Visit Florida racing in Le Mans, the teams would rather send their drivers to compete in the GTE category, especially the Corvette C7.R program.

[Coach Ep]

If DPi's are being let in, that might change.

Also, neither of the teams you mentioned had the opportunity to compete at LM with their current prototype car. As things stand now, that won't change. But who knows in 2-3 years time?

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

It's true that DPi will have more potential entries in the IMSA, but it'll have very few cars crossing over to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

As much as some people would like to see Action Express and Visit Florida racing in Le Mans, the teams would rather send their drivers to compete in the GTE category, especially the Corvette C7.R program.

They don't really have a class to run in

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

It's true that DPi will have more potential entries in the IMSA, but it'll have very few cars crossing over to compete in the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

As much as some people would like to see Action Express and Visit Florida racing in Le Mans, the teams would rather send their drivers to compete in the GTE category, especially the Corvette C7.R program.

Action Express may go, I really do expect Visit Florida/Flis to be there soon, if not in '17. More than likely (if still necessary) in the base constructor model of the DPi they decide on via a lease/rental. If it is, in fact, a DPi.





L.P.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

There have also been rumors that HPD and Mercedes have looked at the platform with a more privateer driven focus. There were also Bentley rumors for a few months and it would be the perfect platform for Alphine to step out of a Gibson branded P2. It would also be a good place for Peugeot to develop a factory team until they are ready to jump up to an affordable P1 platform.

What Alphine is doing in P2 is a bit of a joke anyways, filling their lineup with all-pro drivers and a Nissan engine and going out and crushing the class.

I still think long term the best option for IMSA is to go P1 (DPi) and P2 (Pro/Am WEC Spec P2) after the PC class dies off at the end of this year.

HPD - that's already a factory backed program in GTD, why would it be a privateer one in DPi?
Bentley - going to race in a less competitive sub-category to the one that already has two VAG brands makes about as little sense as anything possibly could
Alpine - doesn't even stand to gain anything going from one LMP2 category to another
Peugeot - doesn't stand to gain anything either, Peugeot, Toyota, and Porsche were all competitive in their debut seasons

I don't know why it's implicit that manufacturers should be happier spending money to lose to the LMP1H manufacturers than privateers, because there is no way in hell rebranded, development frozen LMP2s are going to be made as fast.

By the way what Alpine is doing makes perfect sense if you understand the status of the brand. They don't have a product to market, Alpine itself is just a brand awareness exercise right now.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Bentley - going to race in a less competitive sub-category to the one that already has two VAG brands makes about as little sense as anything possibly could

The old talk from Bentley was that they want to fight for overall wins, so a dpi program in imsa would fit that bill. They were close to engine testing in another chassis but i am not sure that ever ended up happening. So for imsa it would make sense, but for a P1-P you are right that makes little sense.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

HPD - that's already a factory backed program in GTD, why would it be a privateer one in DPi?
Bentley - going to race in a less competitive sub-category to the one that already has two VAG brands makes about as little sense as anything possibly could
Alpine - doesn't even stand to gain anything going from one LMP2 category to another
Peugeot - doesn't stand to gain anything either, Peugeot, Toyota, and Porsche were all competitive in their debut seasons

I don't know why it's implicit that manufacturers should be happier spending money to lose to the LMP1H manufacturers than privateers, because there is no way in hell rebranded, development frozen LMP2s are going to be made as fast.

By the way what Alpine is doing makes perfect sense if you understand the status of the brand. They don't have a product to market, Alpine itself is just a brand awareness exercise right now.

Because it would require a limited investment (GT3 engines + bodywork + partnership with a privateer), they have a chance to win one of the classes at Le Mans (P1-P), and they are represented on the gird in the largest motor race on earth.

Just look at the Nissan P1 program that fell apart. They didn't even build a competitive car and got a lot more press than the teams that made up the podium at the 24 did.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by joeb

The old talk from Bentley was that they want to fight for overall wins, so a dpi program in imsa would fit that bill. They were close to engine testing in another chassis but i am not sure that ever ended up happening. So for imsa it would make sense, but for a P1-P you are right that makes little sense.

Except that Bentley could run a Werks team in IWSC and compete for overall wins, while selling customer units for P1-P. Fairly similar to how the Continental GT3 program is ran.






L.P.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Except that Bentley could run a Werks team in IWSC and compete for overall wins, while selling customer units for P1-P. Fairly similar to how the Continental GT3 program is ran.






L.P.

That makes the most sense for seeing Bentley at LM, I think Bentley in IWSC could happen for 2018 if they like the way next season goes. It could be an interesting car if they use the Speed 8 as their design idea. Of course the VAG could put the whole idea in the waste bin before they even have a chance to feel it out.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

That makes the most sense for seeing Bentley at LM, I think Bentley in IWSC could happen for 2018 if they like the way next season goes. It could be an interesting car if they use the Speed 8 as their design idea. Of course the VAG could put the whole idea in the waste bin before they even have a chance to feel it out.

This only works if the DPi formula ends up competing for overall wins. Bentley have said time and time again, that they are not interested in entering races and series where they are not competing for overall wins. That's why there's no GTD car, but you do see them in PWC. It's why IMSAs DPi was a possibility, but there has been no look at Le Mans.

You could get a rogue customer who'd take the car where the manufacturer doesn't want, but you may not get much support.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This only works if the DPi formula ends up competing for overall wins. Bentley have said time and time again, that they are not interested in entering races and series where they are not competing for overall wins. That's why there's no GTD car, but you do see them in PWC. It's why IMSAs DPi was a possibility, but there has been no look at Le Mans.

You could get a rogue customer who'd take the car where the manufacturer doesn't want, but you may not get much support.

Was what I was referring to, I don't think they'd stop someone from taking to Bentley engined car anywhere. Might get one engineer to help you a bit but definitely not the full IMSA program support.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Was what I was referring to, I don't think they'd stop someone from taking to Bentley engined car anywhere. Might get one engineer to help you a bit but definitely not the full IMSA program support.

Logically you're right, and I agree, but it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer has made it difficult for a customer team. Was it not Ferrari who refused to support a customer 458 who wanted to the N24? And made getting spares more of a challenge than they should've. Plus the whole mess with the P4/5 and what badge it was allowed.

I do agree with you, but never underestimate the manufacturers being difficult. VAG Can be particularly difficult, even in the digital world with who can do what with their products!