Why the reduced entries for U2TC?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Interesting indeed.

Looks like MRL are moving into the "Masters" style business model. Albeit they are no doubt being paid to do the organising.

I was seated next to Duncan W’s business partner (from memory- that’s how I think he described himself) at the Jag Challenge do, and appears they have another side to the business running motoring events, like for instance the LR anniversary do at Gaydon (I think) last year. And of course they now run the racing side of Donington HF, and I believe the Thruxton Revival this year as well. I see them taking over admin of Carol’s series as a positive move, but whether the U2TC grid numbers improve- that’s another question!

[Peter Mallett]

Yes, I agree it is positive. Also I concur, the advent of seriously quick Lotus Cortinas (as opposed to simply very quick) has had the expected result on entries.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes, I agree it is positive. Also I concur, the advent of seriously quick Lotus Cortinas (as opposed to simply very quick) has had the expected result on entries.

We did have a single Alfa take the fight to them last year. Maybe that will encourage a few others out!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

We did have a single Alfa take the fight to them last year. Maybe that will encourage a few others out!

I wish!

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

We did have a single Alfa take the fight to them last year. Maybe that will encourage a few others out!

May be you need seriously quick GTA's now… Do you still have very very seriously quick Tisa's in this field?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

May be you need seriously quick GTA's now… Do you still have very very seriously quick Tisa's in this field?

The BMWs have largely given up as they weren’t able to keep competitive with the Cortinas. The main issue, I believe, is the Tisa’s weight, and the fact that the engine is already giving as much power as obtainable. (And there’s plenty of expertise around when it comes to M10 lumps! )

I think the Furiani Alfas are the quickest? Will be interesting if one turns up in PA 60s Endurance again- would a real contender for the under 2.5 litre class championship.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The BMWs have largely given up as they weren’t able to keep competitive with the Cortinas. The main issue, I believe, is the Tisa’s weight, and the fact that the engine is already giving as much power as obtainable.

This brings up back to a very old Simon H post suggesting it would be good to stop Corvinas' development. And Zef' mentioned that with a front runner he had before, now he can just finish around the tenth place. Lets stick to facts and only facts. Previously, already overdeveloped Tisa's could win. Ten years later they can't anymore. What has been discovered on the Lotus bloc since? A f-good question, isn't it Mike?

[Gerard C]

Sorry for what was obviously off topic and thank you for this one!
I hope this very interesting series will go on. I had a look to the lap times achieved on a track many here know, Dijon. May be twelve years ago, 1'48 with a Cortina was enough to make you a winner. In 2007, with Dany Snobeck we made something like 1'42", second best time for a Cortina, best was 1'41" a day no-one could match JO's Tisa. Today, 1'41" can be rated as average if not bad the target being 1'38"5. The track has been improved of course, but probably not by ten seconds. May be the rules "no cheating, no complaining" were not clear enough…

[Willmaz223]

Seem to get good entries at likes of Silverstone and DHF but struggled at the Algarve meet for example.Don't really know why so I'll leave ita t that.😁

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Sorry for what was obviously off topic and thank you for this one!
I hope this very interesting series will go on. I had a look to the lap times achieved on a track many here know, Dijon. May be twelve years ago, 1'48 with a Cortina was enough to make you a winner. In 2007, with Dany Snobeck we made something like 1'42", second best time for a Cortina, best was 1'41" a day no-one could match JO's Tisa. Today, 1'41" can be rated as average if not bad the target being 1'38"5. The track has been improved of course, but probably not by ten seconds. May be the rules "no cheating, no complaining" were not clear enough…

How much is down to tyre technology advancing, or regs regarding tyres becoming more lenient?

[Peter Mallett]

They all run the same tyres and the regs are pretty much unchanged. I suspect, rather similar to the RS2000 the biggest gain is in the block; as such the Beemers and Alfas don't have an alternative.

I'm happy to be corrected here.

[Mike Bell]

Firstly, thank you Peter for moving this discussion from the calendar thread!

I doubt tyres have anything to do with the reduction in lap times in U2TC, as the requirement to use only Dunlop L or M section crossplies hasn’t changed, and second, since production moved away from the UK, the quality of the tyres, in my experience, has fallen.

What has happened, as I see it, is firstly that an increase in horsepower has been found in the Lotus twin Cam engine. Secondly, modern touring car preparers starting building cars using their high-tech facilities and expertise gained from BTCC and the like. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s moved the game on and made it difficult, if not impossible, for individuals and ‘traditional’ preparers to compete. Just add a current pro driver into the mix, and you’ve got a reduction in lap times....

[Mike Bell]

The other thing I wanted to add, is a more general observation on the way Historic racing has changed. When I first came across U2TC, there was a diverse variety of cars competing, but slowly those that are not capable of running at the front have disappeared. Happens in other series as well, maybe because the race entry costs are so high now that competitors will only race in a car that can be competitive? Or is it the case that historic racing has moved away from simply the enjoyment of competing for fun in an old car against like minded people?

[Peter Mallett]

If I may:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

What has happened, as I see it, is firstly that an increase in horsepower has been found in the Lotus twin Cam engine. Secondly, modern touring car preparers starting building cars using their high-tech facilities and expertise gained from BTCC and the like. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s moved the game on and made it difficult, if not impossible, for individuals and ‘traditional’ preparers to compete. Just add a current pro driver into the mix, and you’ve got a reduction in lap times....

Then

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The other thing I wanted to add, is a more general observation on the way Historic racing has changed. When I first came across U2TC, there was a diverse variety of cars competing, but slowly those that are not capable of running at the front have disappeared. Happens in other series as well, maybe because the race entry costs are so high now that competitors will only race in a car that can be competitive? Or is it the case that historic racing has moved away from simply the enjoyment of competing for fun in an old car against like minded people?

Yes it has become a professional arm of motorsport IMO.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by E.B

How much is down to tyre technology advancing, or regs regarding tyres becoming more lenient?

I thought all major series ran on the Dunlop CR65 'L' and 'M' tyres. Certainly HSCC Historic Touring Cars does.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I thought all major series ran on the Dunlop CR65 'L' and 'M' tyres. Certainly HSCC Historic Touring Cars does.

Yes- as mentioned a few posts ago.....

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Or is it the case that historic racing has moved away from simply the enjoyment of competing for fun in an old car against like minded people?

Absolutely that, Mike.


The problem lies mainly with the ingress of wealthy people/ professional teams pushing the boundaries at no expense spared. The multi preppers have made access to racing for the wealthy non-mechanically minded individuals much easier. Previously they would find a mate or pay a mechanic for prepping/race day attendance. But that sort of help doesn't have access to the sort of racecar development available to the pro teams.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Or is it the case that historic racing has moved away from simply the enjoyment of competing for fun in an old car against like minded people?

Just hope that not all historic racing has moved this way. I guess not all the gain is due to the engine block only, I suspect many hours are spent on the jig now.
As to Tisa's when you see what kind of parts are available to increase the power, its surprising to say the least. As you said, weight is the major issue.
Did you race a Cortina, Mike? I love this car.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Absolutely that, Mike. The problem lies mainly with the ingress of wealthy people/ professional teams pushing the boundaries at no expense spared. The multi preppers have made access to racing for the wealthy non-mechanically minded individuals much easier. Previously they would find a mate or pay a mechanic for prepping/race day attendance. But that sort of help doesn't have access to the sort of racecar development available to the pro teams.

As you say Peter, we even seem to have different ‘tiers’ of preparers nowadays. From modern Pro teams at the top, then traditional historic ‘multi’ preparers, through to owner / driver / builders at the bottom of the ladder....

Gerard, I’ve never had the privilege to race a Cortina. Only saloons have been Escorts. They’re just about OK

[Gerard C]

Depending on the category/tyres I guess they are very similar. One good point for the Cortina, they can go sideways without altering the lap times. Well, not too much!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Depending on the category/tyres I guess they are very similar. One good point for the Cortina, they can go sideways without altering the lap times. Well, not too much!

Yes, depending on the tyres of course. Going back to U2TC, I’m wondering if ‘the Goodwood effect’, encouraging modern Pro teams and drivers to compete there, has adversely effected grid sizes elsewhere, when ‘privateers’ realise they’re never going to be competitive against them (when they race in other series)?

For the last season or two it’s all been about the Fords (happy to be corrected on that), but what’s to say that if another make or model suddenly becomes ‘the one to beat’, the front runners won’t all ditch their current mounts and transfer to that.....

[Peter Mallett]

You could be correct. I don't know anyone, including Patrick Watts, who has been invited to the 77MM. So that's at least two Rovers and one Capri omitted from the regulars.

[Gerard C]

How could another car compete against a GTA or a Cortina becoming the one to beat in U2TC? A Cooper in the wet. And… And nothing else, because a winning Alfa or Cortina makes a result "period correct". May be "encouraging" a Fiesta or a Golf GTI becomes a good thing for the show. The anoraks won't be happy finding this ridiculous but who is the targeted public?

[Mike Bell]

I was being hypothetical, Gerard. Pre 66 and under 2 litres narrows the choice of potential ‘winning’ cars, obviously. But if (somehow) the BMW or Alfa engine suddenly found enough extra power to regularly beat the Fords, would the so called Pros change over to whatever?

I’ve been trying to find up to date regs for the series, but most recent that come up are for 2017. Then, there was a ‘U2TC Challenge’ Championship, which awarded extra points for various reasons (such as an older car), but not sure if this is still the case. I’m wondering if by winning a smaller capacity class consistently the driver can win the championship....

[Gerard C]

To beat the Fords as they are now, few alternative in fact. Forget the Tisa, even not compliant, it can't be a front runner. I dont know if the Pedrazzani "brick" to reinforce the GTA bloc (or the modification made by Alfaholics) is allowed and can't say if it will give extra power rather than extra reliability. Another solution is to reinforce scrutineering, old debate. Or bring back a handicap scale as used if I'm correct in BTCC and french Production for instance. Additional weight could be considered after each race.

I guess the pros are only interested in the overall win. Because they come to make business, what do they want to sell and what is their average client's profile? Modern sponsoring is not allowed.