First Aid?

DarrellB · 4 Jul 2003, 20:41 (Ref:652769)

Another thread along similar lines to the fire fighting one.

After an incident at Thruxton at the weekend where a car hit post 12, the driver had the strap of his helmet cut to help his breathing by one of the marshals on post (very well done for the quick thinking and the good work carried out over the weekend)

I was thinking how important is first aid training for marshals and do we do enough. How many have had to call on their first aid skills at an incident.

Try not to include too much detail for the squeamish out there!!

(and hopefully this will not be overun by bike marshals and rescue crews and any gory stories)

neil_davidson2 · 4 Jul 2003, 20:54 (Ref:652787)

As an additional question on this subject, I'm not a trained first aider and have tried a couple of times to find somewhere that provides training for individuals rather than for companies.

Both the Red Cross and St. Johns in my local area could offer me courses in how not to drop a baby in the bath, but not for first intervention.

Anyone got any ideas on this?

**Woolley** · 4 Jul 2003, 21:31 (Ref:652833)

Been there, done that as well. I told you you need to be well away from me! First on the scene for Graham Hickman (Shelsley 1990something) the split in his helmet was matched by the one in his head (thankfully fully recovered from afterwards) and not breathing on my arrival. We had done a fair bit on first intervention at hill climb training days, so fortunately I had a good idea what to do. Still haven't got a first aid certificate for the same reasons mentioned above, but have much more practical experience since that day. I also read Mrs Woolley's notes when she did her certificate.

G Tanner · 4 Jul 2003, 21:48 (Ref:652853)

Personally, I would be a bit concerned that a trackside marshal had to intervene to aid a drivers breathing at a race meeting at Thruxton.

I'm not doubting the marshals skill's, it's just that I would suggest the system has broken down if the Doctor/Rescue Team were not the one's aiding the driver with the removal of his helmet. By all means allow the driver to take it off, but I would far rather there was medical supervision involved.

Is there not a Rescue Unit stationed reasonably close to 12?

chezza · 4 Jul 2003, 22:58 (Ref:652928)

He didn't say the helmet was removed, just the strap was cut to aid breathing.

I feel that we should have some first aid training I would rather know some first intervention techniques and know that I could do something if I was first to an incident.

Luckily I haven't attended any major incidents...yet!

sss · 4 Jul 2003, 23:26 (Ref:652950)

why cant rescue or bike marshals join in that excludes me on nearly all counts

i cant remember doing any first aid when i marshalled cars

scorch · 5 Jul 2003, 15:09 (Ref:653379)

Cause marshalls are like fishermen everybody has a story and it was this big....
It's just that rescue and bike marshalls seem to have the more graphic ones than everybody else.

blueflagger · 5 Jul 2003, 18:56 (Ref:653506)

I've had to use my first-aid training more for bikes than cars. I'll never live down the time I had to strip off a rider's leathers in front of a crowd of spectators to put a temporary bandage on gash on his buttock. In the US though, rescue response time has improved greatly since that incident.

These days, we are generally relegated to holding an injured driver's head steady as they get ready to backboard him. But that's pretty rare. Most often, I used my knowledge for heat exhaustion and heat stroke victims. It can be a big problem over here in summer.

Richard Sneader · 5 Jul 2003, 21:41 (Ref:653590)

For those that no me they will no how close to my heart first aid is and as a trainer for St John I feel I can comment proffesionaly on this subject.
The first aid offred by the voluntry aids is designed for the workplace as this is a H&S requirment. They do other types of training depending on the needs but for specialist training you usually have to be a member of the relevent organisation.
I do believe a type of first aid for marshalling should be taught but a traing record would have to be kept so people can do the refresher every year or 3 years depending on the course. Also as people like the Ressus Council like to change things alot update training would need to be implemented as well. So already you can see its not a case of just learning first aid.
I often use my skills untill help arrives or I hand over to a doctor/ paramedic or rescue unit.
Indeed in the last month I have done full CPR on a biker at a Belgian race meeting, dealt with a photographer with a cut finger, and the incident at the bottom of Paddock Hill after the last race during the Superbike meeting at Brands(although for this I was ambulance crew on the padock amby)
At other times I have given head/neck support and various other things.
SO to sum up a good idea but alot has to be in place for the training and refreshers and updates.
RS
To those on post 12 at Thruxton Well done. In that situation if breathing is impared waiting could kill the driver. I would have done the same.

Richard Sneader · 6 Jul 2003, 19:35 (Ref:654127)

APologies I forgot to add, for legal implications if you do not have an in date first aid certificate and it goes wrong, you as the person doing the treatment are liable. Also if you do anything that is not covred by your in date training you could also be held liable. There are alot of grey areas as well and we see alot in St John and we have to deal with the persons involved.
Be careful what you do, If you think its above what you can do then just call for help. If you start something and then find out its above what you can do then it can be potentially life threatining or may be alot more worse could happen.
Its a handy skill to have but know your limits.
RS

gandulf · 6 Jul 2003, 19:39 (Ref:654132)

just a quick reply to your first aid needs ive been involved in training both car and bike marshalls for over five years.
yes first aid at work is only for work but it does give you the basics,but you could also do a 4 hour save a life course witch would also give you the basics.But would'nt it be a good idea if marshall's were to ask there local para's,doc's or rescue crew to do some training in first aid for them? When i train both car and bike marshalls i teach them to maintain somone's airway for 90 seconds with the helmet inplace,that is the time the blue book says a rescue unit or fast doctors car should be there.last note yes i think there should be first aid training for marshalls,but most of you do do first aid training when you do your annual training days

Richard Sneader · 6 Jul 2003, 19:41 (Ref:654133)

Gandulf some do train at training days but its not a certified course under the H&S and as you are aware if courses do not meet their criteria and it goes wrong?. Heads would roll.
RS

flagwaver · 6 Jul 2003, 20:20 (Ref:654166)

RZSIO396 Please do not scare marshals into doing nothing. You do not have to have a "piece of paper" to administer first aid, just common sense. Do not take my word for it please read the relevent section on the U.K. Resuscitation Council at http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/bls.htm.

gandulf · 6 Jul 2003, 20:20 (Ref:654167)

it dos'nt have to be a certifcated course because you would be coverd under the good samaritan's act that you were acting on the best intrest's of the casualty

mark_l · 6 Jul 2003, 21:41 (Ref:654217)

If you did help and the driver lived but decided to sue you, the chances of him/her succeeding in a court case are slim.

If you did nothing and the driver died, the dead cant sue.

mark_l · 6 Jul 2003, 21:42 (Ref:654220)

http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.htm

mark_l · 6 Jul 2003, 21:46 (Ref:654224)

Doesn't the liability indemnity signed by the drivers at Signing On protect marshals against legal action as a result of action taken at a circuit?

Anyone have any ideas on this.

sss · 6 Jul 2003, 23:08 (Ref:654286)

i did type out a rather monumental response to this but when i posted it it said the forum was to busy and deleted it.

so here is a brief version

all marshals should be taught basic skills along with the waving of a flag.

maintaining spine control
maintaining or assisting an airway
slowing a severe leak of the red yucky stuff

its easy to learn and takes little time to teach, and no you dont need to do a lengthy course it can all be done during a training day, or just go and speak to your rescue crew or doctor and it can be done in a lunch break or b4 or after a meeting

dont ever be put off by the threat of 'heads will roll' or 'you will be sued' YOU can save a life by a few basic skills.

Garry Holmes · 7 Jul 2003, 07:36 (Ref:654463)

The BRMC/ANWCC featured an excellent First Aid In Motorsport course back in Feburary. I took part & it taught me some valuable skills (many of which I hope never to use). On a circuit doctors / rescue are there very quickly, but stting there waiting does feel like an age, on a rally stage it could be quite a long time depending on the location of radio cars ect. Anything that allows you to keep a casualty 1. Alive 2. Comfortable is surely a good thing?

Quite a bit of the first morning was taken up with the legal ins & outs, what & where not to touch. Basically as volunteers we have what is known as "good samaritan" in the legal world.

DarrellB · 7 Jul 2003, 07:51 (Ref:654473)

Quote:

Originally posted by G Tanner
Personally, I would be a bit concerned that a trackside marshal had to intervene to aid a drivers breathing at a race meeting at Thruxton.

I'm not doubting the marshals skill's, it's just that I would suggest the system has broken down if the Doctor/Rescue Team were not the one's aiding the driver with the removal of his helmet. By all means allow the driver to take it off, but I would far rather there was medical supervision involved.

Is there not a Rescue Unit stationed reasonably close to 12?

Why shouldn't a trackside marshal give first aid ie basic ABC they are liable to be first on scene and could make the difference prior to a rescue or doctor vehicle arriving.

The unit attended this incident immediately and was on scene probably within a minute of the incident happening by which time the marshal had released pressure from the drivers airway, the correct thing to do in the circumstances. It only takes two minutes to have complications caused by a lack of oxygen from a restricted airway.

When giving training to marshals I always tell them the basics of first aid and that the main thing to do with an unconsious driver is to ensure an open airway.

garybirch · 7 Jul 2003, 08:52 (Ref:654534)

As a new(ish) marshal I would value some first aid training as I couldn't just stand there and wait until someone who knew what they were doing go there.
Well done to the Post 12 marshal. Good call.
I'm sure the driver is very appreciative of your efforts.
I was wondering what any drivers thought of this?

DarrellB · 7 Jul 2003, 13:25 (Ref:654803)

Quote:

Originally posted by garybirch
As a new(ish) marshal I would value some first aid training as I couldn't just stand there and wait until someone who knew what they were doing go there.
Well done to the Post 12 marshal. Good call.
I'm sure the driver is very appreciative of your efforts.
I was wondering what any drivers thought of this?

BARC rescue will be holding another marshals have a go day at the beginning of next year where we will be covering the basics of first aid needed before a rescue unit arrives. We also cover the equipment carried and what happens at serious incidents.

chezza · 7 Jul 2003, 13:51 (Ref:654830)

I wish the BRDC would run something like that...I've seen a mock up of a serious incident and had explained about the equipment but we don't get the first aid info!!

DarrellB · 7 Jul 2003, 14:38 (Ref:654872)

The have a go days are open to all marshals and are held at Thruxton. There is usually an availability included with the BARC availabilities for those that have previously done meetings with BARC or alternatively contact Karen at the beginning of next year when we will sorting the date for the next day.

chezza · 7 Jul 2003, 14:45 (Ref:654877)

Ok will have a look into that at some point!