Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10 Sep 2019, 12:26 (Ref:3927140)   #16
crmalcolm
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Ireland
Posts: 4,380
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I think it should be kept on record for a rolling 12 months (like I presume the current penalty points system works?). That would stop drivers being overly aggressive in the first few races.
I would agree with this proposal.
If part of the reason for seeing the flag used more often is to 'let them race', then it should come with a penalty for multiple times received.

3 times in a rolling 12-month period and you start the next race from the back of the grid?
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"Is this a willy measuring contest?" - "his is much longer, my is short"!
"I don't like the sound of all the lists he's making - Ben Stein"
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 13:00 (Ref:3927145)   #17
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,252
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I think it should be kept on record for a rolling 12 months (like I presume the current penalty points system works?). That would stop drivers being overly aggressive in the first few races.
Why not combine it with the points system? I think Vettel is close to his 12 right now, but generally speaking the points system is a bit of a farce because (to the best of my memory) has anyone been really hit by it? Even if so, maybe it should happen more frequently.

Broadly speaking, I think fan don't want stewards to change race results. I know this doesn't logically make sense, as it implies drivers can flout the rules, but I say make the points system mean something. If you get a black/white flag, get a few points a well?

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 13:42 (Ref:3927156)   #18
Taxi645
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Netherlands
Posts: 414
Taxi645 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Why not combine it with the points system? I think Vettel is close to his 12 right now, but generally speaking the points system is a bit of a farce because (to the best of my memory) has anyone been really hit by it? Even if so, maybe it should happen more frequently.

Broadly speaking, I think fan don't want stewards to change race results. I know this doesn't logically make sense, as it implies drivers can flout the rules, but I say make the points system mean something. If you get a black/white flag, get a few points a well?

Richard
I think that would be a good idea. Otherwise it could get wild west.
Taxi645 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 13:55 (Ref:3927160)   #19
ScotsBrutesFan
Race Official
Veteran
 
ScotsBrutesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Scotland
West Lothian
Posts: 5,098
ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!ScotsBrutesFan has a real shot at the championship!
Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of making the driving standards flag count in some way, to introduce it when there are drivers with a wide range of points already on the table would be difficult.

For a driver who has no/few points to flout the driving standards in order to win a race in the knowledge that it won't have an immediate effect, a driver on many points at the time its introduced picking up a driving standard warning or points, could put them out of the next race.

The playing field would have to be levelled first.
ScotsBrutesFan is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 14:22 (Ref:3927164)   #20
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,252
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan View Post
Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of making the driving standards flag count in some way, to introduce it when there are drivers with a wide range of points already on the table would be difficult.

For a driver who has no/few points to flout the driving standards in order to win a race in the knowledge that it won't have an immediate effect, a driver on many points at the time its introduced picking up a driving standard warning or points, could put them out of the next race.

The playing field would have to be levelled first.
I see your point, but there seems to be a general assumption that driver can now just do whatever they want and at worst get a black/white flag.

I think the use of it should be... "I (as driver) feel lucky I got a black/white vs. a direct race penalty (stop/go, etc.)". Regular penalties should still be handed out for those that move just a bit out of the grey area (such as the recent re-entry in front of other race cars).

I fully recognize this problem is the consistency of application. That some will say... driver X did the same thing last week and only got a black/white while this week driver Y got a harsher penalty.

I will say... that we were already in that situation today before the black/white flag. I would say that tying driver points to black/white flag is "more strict" than the pre-black/white flag situation, but still less strict than it was maybe a year ago (pre... "let them race")

As to the fairness of those who already have points against them and those who don't might take advantage of them. Isn't that the entire point of having a points system? It is long term punishment. If you don't want to get taken advantage of later in the season... don't rack up points early on. As to it being a bit unfair to those who might have a number of points now... Again.. Who is getting punished here. Those drivers with a number of points on their license? So be it! Prior offenses should not be wiped clean.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 15:17 (Ref:3927172)   #21
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,473
S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!S griffin is going for a new lap record!
Well some drivers have got away with more than others. Obviously there is a grey area of what is worthy of a punishment

Itís a shame we have to have this debate as we have seen some good clean battles this season. Obviously there will come a time when harsher things are punished. Those with points on their licence need to watch out, but at the same time itís hard when people take advantage of them. But they should try and avoid that trap in the first place
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 15:34 (Ref:3927174)   #22
VIVA GT
Subscriber
Veteran
 
VIVA GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
England
Leicestershire
Posts: 4,170
VIVA GT is going for a new lap record!VIVA GT is going for a new lap record!VIVA GT is going for a new lap record!VIVA GT is going for a new lap record!VIVA GT is going for a new lap record!VIVA GT is going for a new lap record!
Being cynical (who me? I just thought I'd try it and see what it feels like) I can see other drivers using it to their advantage too. I driver A (who has few or no penalty points) is coming up to battle with driver B (who is right on the upper limits on points), driver A will know that driver B dare not robustly defend their position in case of risking a disqualification, whereas Driver A has little to lose.
VIVA GT is offline  
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange!
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 15:39 (Ref:3927175)   #23
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,537
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
Being cynical (who me? I just thought I'd try it and see what it feels like) I can see other drivers using it to their advantage too. I driver A (who has few or no penalty points) is coming up to battle with driver B (who is right on the upper limits on points), driver A will know that driver B dare not robustly defend their position in case of risking a disqualification, whereas Driver A has little to lose.
in fairness this happens in many other sports...in basketball it is a fairly common practice to 'attack' a player who has already committed enough fouls to be in danger of fouling out of a game. i would imagine the same for soccer.

some would call this good strategy.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 16:30 (Ref:3927184)   #24
TrapezeArtist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
England
Posts: 1,292
TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
3 times in a rolling 12-month period and you start the next race from the back of the grid?
But cannot be combined with other grid penalties for engine, gearbox, etc.
TrapezeArtist is offline  
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 23:56 (Ref:3927255)   #25
Skam85
Veteran
 
Skam85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Australia
Melbourne
Posts: 2,074
Skam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSkam85 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
You are correct on the penalties. However there was no Stroll/Gasly contact because Gasly did a better job of avoiding Stroll (or maybe he was just luckier) than Stroll did with Vettel. So it was the innocent party in both cases who determined whether there was contact, not the transgressor.

It's far too late to look to precedent to determine what should be penalised and what the penalty should be. There are always conflicting precedents that could be called upon. Indeed you could say that the only consistency in the application of penalties is the inconsistency. Jolyon Palmer has made the same call as me for a rewrite of the rules, saying "In my view, F1 needs a complete rules reset." His full analysis is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863


The BBC don't even bother trying to hide their bias anymore.
Skam85 is offline  
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 23:59 (Ref:3927257)   #26
Adam43
14th
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 33,512
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Bias which way? Anyway it is an opinion piece.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Why Don't You Just Switch Off Your Television Set and Go Out and Do Something Less Boring Instead?
Quote
Old 11 Sep 2019, 08:28 (Ref:3927281)   #27
Johno.UK
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 255
Johno.UK should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Interpreting bias is a tricky thing as most people have their own opinions and interpret anything that disagrees with them as bias.

The political mess in the UK is showing that quite nicely. Read a right wing paper and the comment section say the BBC is biased to the left. Read a left wing paper and they said they're biased to the right.
Johno.UK is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Sep 2019, 13:08 (Ref:3927353)   #28
Born Racer
Race Official
Veteran
 
Born Racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,528
Born Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Thanks for the link, ScotsBrutesFan, to the conversation between Anthony Davidson and Michael Masi. I thought Michael dealt with the questions clearly and comes across as keen to establish defined procedures for driving standards.

He does, however, raise some concerns for me. Although I don't entirely disagree with the idea that no contact means a less severe penalty, it is open to a change in attitude by the driver on the receiving end of a move like Leclerc's: had Hamilton chosen not to move himself out onto the grass slightly, they would have collided and he could have helped Leclerc get a penalty, thereby ensuring the race win for himself.

There is therefore now more of an incentive for the driver who feels he is wronged to collide.

That is the first thing that is not conducive to what I would call great racing.

The second thing that does not help lead to great racing is the fact that such moves are now being increasingly tolerated. I refer to this point of gert's:
Quote:
Personally I would have preferred the other option where drivers were obliged to give the other car a car's width of racing room (i.e. Verstappen's action on Leclerc would have been wrong, as would have been Lecler's on Hamilton) but I'm OK with this if they keep on being consistent.
Same on-track action, same (lack of) steward action.
Personally, I am not so in favour of this type of racing because I think that leaving a car's room leads to more exciting racing. What springs to mind is another Monza example - Hamilton on Vettel last year. Vettel left him room and he could conceivably have fought back.

When we see cars side-by-side on compromised lines, we see some fantastic battles. The Toro Rossos in a recent race for several corners is a case in point.

The new problem may not therefore be the lack of consistency, but the lack of a battle as drivers push others wide aggressively in the first instance and accept their black-and-white flag.

Lewis Hamilton has said the following:
Quote:
"If that's how we are allowed to race then I will race like that," he stated. "As long as we know that you are allowed to not leave a car width for example, as long as you are not contradicting us and there is a clear message.

"So you are allowed to run wide even if someone is there and you only get a warning flag, and you only need that once to potentially keep the guy behind you
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24...lerc-collision

He has been explicit here about what the new gameplan will be for so many. I have no doubt Hamilton will respond in kind to a similar move by Leclerc and others. But it is sad that something may be lost from racing.

It will be compelling to see how this unfolds.

Last edited by Born Racer; 11 Sep 2019 at 13:16.
Born Racer is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Sep 2019, 13:12 (Ref:3927357)   #29
crmalcolm
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Ireland
Posts: 4,380
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Racer View Post
Although I don't entirely disagree with the idea that no contact means a less severe penalty, it is open to a change in attitude by the driver on the receiving end of a move like Leclerc's: had Hamilton chosen not to move himself out onto the grass slightly, they would have collided and he could have helped Leclerc get a penalty, thereby ensuring the race win for himself.
Interesting thought, and one that brings to mind former cases of 'deliberate crashing'.

If the situation can be thought of here, without too much stretch, then surely the teams will also consider the options?

In the recent example of Leclerc vs Hamilton - there is also the 2nd car factor to consider. Had Mercedes been keen to see Leclerc penalised, then they have the option of putting Bottas right behind their 'target', and giving him the instruction to not avoid contact. They are then covered if either the pair crash out, or just contact is made but the drivers can continue.
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"Is this a willy measuring contest?" - "his is much longer, my is short"!
"I don't like the sound of all the lists he's making - Ben Stein"
Quote
Old 11 Sep 2019, 13:18 (Ref:3927363)   #30
Born Racer
Race Official
Veteran
 
Born Racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,528
Born Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
In the recent example of Leclerc vs Hamilton - there is also the 2nd car factor to consider. Had Mercedes been keen to see Leclerc penalised, then they have the option of putting Bottas right behind their 'target', and giving him the instruction to not avoid contact. They are then covered if either the pair crash out, or just contact is made but the drivers can continue.
This is the kind of thinking teams will factor in, pushing regulations to the limits as always and beyond the 'spirit' of the regulation, as you might expect them to do. But it concerns me, because I think we're going to lose something wonderful.
Born Racer is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Driver Standards, Stewarding and Regulations wnut Formula One 45 10 Sep 2016 01:21
Consistency in Stewarding wnut Formula One 17 11 Jan 2013 07:09
Changes to Stewarding Marbot Formula One 9 6 Nov 2008 13:57
On-Track Driving Standards Slowcoach Racers Forum 10 28 Jun 2001 08:27
Driving Standards ? Craig Australasian Touring Cars. 32 6 Jun 2001 09:34


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.