Future Grands Prix?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

That's true, BJ, but at a price. However, Russia, or perhaps I should say Putin, has been screwing Europe over the cost for some little time.

Actually that's not within his purview. The energy prices are set by the market thus when the 2008 crash happened the oil price dropped through the floor and the energy companies closed many facilities. I don't actually agree with the way they work but I can't blame Putin for the price of oil at the moment. He is responsible for the current spike though. Also the UK energy policy has resulted in our reliance on imported oil and gas, very little from Russia, so we need to ditch the green agenda and open up our energy reserves.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Actually that's not within his purview. The energy prices are set by the market thus when the 2008 crash happened the oil price dropped through the floor and the energy companies closed many facilities. I don't actually agree with the way they work but I can't blame Putin for the price of oil at the moment. He is responsible for the current spike though. Also the UK energy policy has resulted in our reliance on imported oil and gas, very little from Russia, so we need to ditch the green agenda and open up our energy reserves.

Why is the UK reliant on imported oil and gas, when it has its own oil and gas reserves?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why is the UK reliant on imported oil and gas, when it has its own oil and gas reserves?

I think it comes from a balance of the cost to extract vs the cost to import.

Over a 5-year period up until 2010, the cost-effectiveness of import vs extraction meant that the level of import rose to 40% of the UK demand.
Ramping up / down the extraction rates is not a quick process, and there will be a time over which the rates will adjust - driven by longer-term market rates.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why is the UK reliant on imported oil and gas, when it has its own oil and gas reserves?

The strategic gas reserve, the Rough storage facility, was closed in 2017 after the government refused to pay out for preventative maintenance - it was deemed to costly to continue using. So we now have no "buffer". Aside from that, the UK was only ever a net exporter of oil & gas for a short period in the 80s and 90s (I think, I'm sure Peter will correct me if that's wrong!), and now between 50 and 60% of our gas is imported either via pipeline, or via LNG tankers from further afield.

Our oil reserves are a different story. Crude oil differs from field to field, some is very "heavy" and some is "light"; when distilled in a refinery they produce dramatically different proportions of the compounds within. Some crude produces lots of petrol, some lots of diesel/kerosene, some lots of naphtha, some is very waxy, some contains lots of sulphur. As a result one country can't provide their entire needs from a single source, so sell some of theirs and import from other sources.

[note that the preceding paragraph ignores catalytic cracking or steam reforming to make heavy chain hydrocarbons smaller]

On top of that, some of the North Sea oil fields have become financially non-viable to keep operating, so there aren't as many productive wells now as there once were.

Not a simple answer, and I'm glossing over a lot of complexity, but that's more or less right.

[Peter Mallett]

Greem is mostly correct. There are massive gas reserves under the UK but they rely on fracking which is currently banned. There are new oil and gas reserves in the North Sea and new licences are being prepared. Brent crude is very heavy and needs to be blended with others, often US light crude.

Gas is really where we could theoretically be independent, but the price would still be set by the market. So it's really all about energy security.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Yes, Mike, much of the world finds it easier to condemn a country that it wants nothing from.

I can only speculate as I live in the US, but I an imagine that what is going on in Ukraine probably feel much more "real" than what is happening in the middle east.

There is a US saying... "all politics is local". Which is meant to say everything boils down to grass root/local issues. But I think you can substitute "regional" for "local" with respect to European reaction to the Ukraine war.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Thanks for the explanations.

[chillibowl]

Domenicali suggesting that there is potential interest for up to 30 GPs each season.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...ndle-exclusive

30 races a season is probably not doable any time soon (and personally way way too many races) but i suspect that if there is increasing interest then the price tag to host will go up and inevitably some of the classic but underfunded tracks will again start to get squeezed out.

a race somewhere in Africa would be a welcomed addition but a return to Vegas with 2 other American GPs on the calendar already maybe doesn't bode well for COTA.

Spa will no doubt be back in jeopardy.

[S griffin]

30 races is way too many. It’s hard enough for the NASCAR crew and they race in only one country!

There are some races that quite frankly add nothing to the calendar and this weekend’s Saudi GP will again be under scrutiny due to the ridiculous human rights laws. That shows how wrong this whole idea of 30 races is. Money has become too much of a factor

And if Spa is under threat, I really question how much passion the likes of Domenicalli really have for the sport

[bjohnsonsmith]

Why does F1 need 30 races?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Greem is mostly correct. There are massive gas reserves under the UK but they rely on fracking which is currently banned. There are new oil and gas reserves in the North Sea and new licences are being prepared. Brent crude is very heavy and needs to be blended with others, often US light crude.

Gas is really where we could theoretically be independent, but the price would still be set by the market. So it's really all about energy security.

You would be surprised with the usable amounts of that now with newer distillation processes. It's not the previous why bother according to those I know from oil production, it's just a matter of changing goals and a few systems. It's not cheap but can be done.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Domenicali suggesting that there is potential interest for up to 30 GPs each season.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...ndle-exclusive

30 races a season is probably not doable any time soon (and personally way way too many races) but i suspect that if there is increasing interest then the price tag to host will go up and inevitably some of the classic but underfunded tracks will again start to get squeezed out.

a race somewhere in Africa would be a welcomed addition but a return to Vegas with 2 other American GPs on the calendar already maybe doesn't bode well for COTA.

Spa will no doubt be back in jeopardy.

I think interest is far different than desire. Interest increases average price, desire increases income.

COTA is always at risk, building a track like that in an area where some of the best weather is TOUGH sledding for the available weekends wasn't a great idea to start. Summer near completely useless, spring has NASCAR now (this weekend I believe) and fall, well some school with orange hats and a steer might have something to say. FWIW, steer is a castrated bull so why does Texas have a longhorn steer, but I digress.

I think F1 future growth in the US is city center tracks, the road courses remaining have enough series and rental events to make it not worth the needed investment. Most don't have real garages and are fine with that, building something like that would take far more money than they would make back. City centers could have the nightlife and events FOM wants and everything can be packed away/sold to the next city dumb enough to try it.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

...City centers could have the nightlife and events FOM wants and everything can be packed away/sold to the next city dumb enough to try it.

yep, this is what worries/bothers me.

and post covid with all these cities looking to revitalize their tourism industries with the benefit of a nice fat government subsidy and a massively popular netflix show offering an extra value added advertising bump.

how can they refuse?:/

[crmalcolm]

Las Vegas to host grand prix from 2023

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60932994

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I think F1 future growth in the US is city center tracks, the road courses remaining have enough series and rental events to make it not worth the needed investment. Most don't have real garages and are fine with that, building something like that would take far more money than they would make back. City centers could have the nightlife and events FOM wants and everything can be packed away/sold to the next city dumb enough to try it.

F1's growth in the US

'The race is being promoted in partnership with some of the major casino and hotel groups in the city, including Caesars Palace, Wynn Las Vegas, MGM and the Venetian.
This time, the casinos and hotels are all on board, and it seems this has come about as a result of F1's growing momentum in the States, which many put down largely to the new audience created by the Netflix show Drive to Survive.'



'The 3.8-mile track will include a portion of the Nevada resort city's famous Strip.

It will be a night race and will be held on a Saturday. The eight-hour time difference will mean it is broadcast early on Sunday morning in Europe.'

[paulzinho]

Find it amazing they can get 3 Grand Prix in the US but struggle to get one in Germany.

This calendar is getting a bit ridiculous now. Could understand Miami and Vegas alternating but as a legacy F1 fan my views don't really matter here!

[bella]

yeah this one feels a bit insulting to me too.

it seems perfect for an exhibition event of some sort, but an actual race in the championship? no.

only thing i can think of is they’re trying to diversify their event locations in an attempt to mitigate any future middle east beef and russian and ex-soviet country issues. and capitalising on this populist wave from netflix is a very good idea too.

sad, but i think us legacy fans who enjoy circuits and proper ones at that are best off enjoying those qualities in different types of racing. street circuits are fun and all but i think outside of the monaco event they’re just better suited to slower cars like formula e and the magic f3 street races.

[Plantagenet]

without wanting to come across too pious here, at least the US is a democracy and has heritage in motorsports, so I'd rather have 3 in the US and some of the 'others' to be rationalized.
It's a shame though, the US has some great venues and yet a flat street circuit around LV is unlikely to be special. Can you imagine the current generation of cars taking on Laguna Seca!

[crmalcolm]

I am wont to look at the LV GP through the context of distribution on a geographical (continental) level.

I make this 5 races in America, compared to 11 races in Europe, 5 races in Asia and 1 in Australia.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

without wanting to come across too pious here, at least the US is a democracy and has heritage in motorsports, so I'd rather have 3 in the US and some of the 'others' to be rationalized.
It's a shame though, the US has some great venues and yet a flat street circuit around LV is unlikely to be special. Can you imagine the current generation of cars taking on Laguna Seca!

Unfortunately I can and it's NOT good. Corkscrew once and drivers would be whinging about the cars and the track, cars off would be destroyed on the undertrays so everyone would cry about yellow flags and disruptions, and then the facilities, or complete lack there of and trips back and forth so everyone can stay in comfort. Most of the F1 circus flew back and forth from Indy to Chicago because the facilities around Indy weren't ok, Laguna is out there on windy roads. Oh and don't you dare screw anything up or the (we like to pretend we're) Greenies will attack.


Sadly it appears I nailed it and Vegas has been at the top of EVERY American sport for years and now that gaming initiatives have been passed in most states and leagues are publicly giving odds and gambling advice the taboo is gone. Raiders have moved, NHL expanded a team, baseball wants games in town. Never mind the environmental disaster that is Vegas itself, see the Colorado trickle, let's add more to a town that was an outpost of 20k in the 80s compared to ~2.5 million now

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by bella

yeah this one feels a bit insulting to me too.

it seems perfect for an exhibition event of some sort, but an actual race in the championship? no.

only thing i can think of is they’re trying to diversify their event locations in an attempt to mitigate any future middle east beef and russian and ex-soviet country issues. and capitalising on this populist wave from netflix is a very good idea too.

sad, but i think us legacy fans who enjoy circuits and proper ones at that are best off enjoying those qualities in different types of racing. street circuits are fun and all but i think outside of the monaco event they’re just better suited to slower cars like formula e and the magic f3 street races.

I think unfortunately the overlap between the Netflix crowd and the city center racing is VAST and they want the point and squirt junk of city circuits. Short attention spans

[bella]

guess the logic is the old adage that if you put the racing directly in front of people they're more likely to go and see it. you guys have as strong a culture of street circuits, if not stronger, than purpose built circuits, so i suppose it tracks (heh).

the counter to that is austin, but that's a pretty inimitable event!

(imagine them whinging about the sebring bumps )

[gert]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

Can you imagine the current generation of cars taking on Laguna Seca!

I would very much prefer Road America.

But sadly I fear the response would not be much different ... ?
Apart from the 'Corkscrew' issue...

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Unfortunately I can and it's NOT good. Corkscrew once and drivers would be whinging about the cars and the track, cars off would be destroyed on the undertrays so everyone would cry about yellow flags and disruptions, and then the facilities, or complete lack there of and trips back and forth so everyone can stay in comfort. Most of the F1 circus flew back and forth from Indy to Chicago because the facilities around Indy weren't ok, Laguna is out there on windy roads. Oh and don't you dare screw anything up or the (we like to pretend we're) Greenies will attack.


Sadly it appears I nailed it and Vegas has been at the top of EVERY American sport for years and now that gaming initiatives have been passed in most states and leagues are publicly giving odds and gambling advice the taboo is gone. Raiders have moved, NHL expanded a team, baseball wants games in town. Never mind the environmental disaster that is Vegas itself, see the Colorado trickle, let's add more to a town that was an outpost of 20k in the 80s compared to ~2.5 million now

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

without wanting to come across too pious here, at least the US is a democracy and has heritage in motorsports, so I'd rather have 3 in the US and some of the 'others' to be rationalized.
It's a shame though, the US has some great venues and yet a flat street circuit around LV is unlikely to be special. Can you imagine the current generation of cars taking on Laguna Seca!

It F1 were ever to go to Laguna Seca, there would be so many ''modifications'' made to the track to suit F1, it wouldn't be Laguna Seca anymore.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I am wont to look at the LV GP through the context of distribution on a geographical (continental) level.

I make this 5 races in America, compared to 11 races in Europe, 5 races in Asia and 1 in Australia.

FOM might also be wont to look at it in a geographical context.

a night race in Vegas puts the race on at a very very early time for the European time zones.

this will require the race to be on saturday night (which is about the only thing i like here) but when in the year?

Miami in May so does another event near that hurt Miami? is summer too hot, even at night, for summer race in Vegas? that leaves fall and Vegas starts getting very cool in the evenings/night in fall plus far more sports competition in TV fall evenings which could hurt the US tv market.

for sure im definitely looking for reasons why this wont work other then a flat street circuit comprised mainly of really long straights is hardly inspiring.