What's happening to motorsport?

[vjay48]

A race organiser that is not involved with other peoples commercial/business ventures can run a series with a £100 reg/club fee,entries at £235 for practice and two races,does this prove the point? Mine you does help if you own 4 circuits,dont mean BARC,you need to own 4 good ones!

[midgetman]

Why can't they be honest, scrap the reg fee and charge a higher entry fee? The reg fee is just a subsidy to the races, so if you can't do two or three you are paying anyway and that not fair. There's little cost to admin these days of email and web sites!

It certainly seems to be that customers are voting with their feet this year. Grid numbers seem to be down across the board, and talking the the senior management at Combe today indicates spectator numbers are down too.

[mig]

The cost of racing, which to most of us is a hobby, is getting silly. one way to reduce entry fees would be to have full grids I have seen many championships/races with single number grids these need to go you may loose a few drivers but that is happening now. rather then just loosing championship status they should be scrapped and similar grids combined at least this way we have a chance of cheaper entry fees. This of course means clubs and organising bodys working together and that wont happen.

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Why can't they be honest, scrap the reg fee and charge a higher entry fee? The reg fee is just a subsidy to the races, so if you can't do two or three you are paying anyway and that not fair. There's little cost to admin these days of email and web sites!

This I have never understood. Surely it just puts potential competitors off? I know that some clubs are flexible and give guest entries but some registration / membership fees are crazy. And then the websites are appalling or don't even exist..

BARC / BRSCC. With the emergence of HRDC, MSVR, CSCC, CCRC and perhaps even Britcar over the last decade, I don't think it's a huge surprise that the "traditional" clubs are suffering. And we now have Croft, Rockingham and Anglesey (plus Goodwood) to keep running..

But, 750MC still have entry fees for less than £160....

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Why can't they be honest, scrap the reg fee and charge a higher entry fee? The reg fee is just a subsidy to the races, so if you can't do two or three you are paying anyway and that not fair. There's little cost to admin these days of email and web sites!

It certainly seems to be that customers are voting with their feet this year. Grid numbers seem to be down across the board, and talking the the senior management at Combe today indicates spectator numbers are down too.

Why would you want even higher entry fees? You sound like the average Pistonheader who wants higher petrol prices and no road fund tax. Well they can charge what they like for petrol tax and race entries and people will still pay so why would clubs want to give up another form of tax on us?

I think people are voting with their feet because it is getting too expensive and unless you are the type that race with the like of the Masters you probably haven't got the money at the moment. The race circuit owners wont worry because any race day that is lost will be filled with a track or corporate day.

[Paul D]

Some good points made in the last few points, a few of which I touched on in my post back on page one.

The fact is that racing is getting ever more expensive, and in the midst of the worst recession in a generation! I'd say it's definitely not sustainable as things stand.

Until clubs actually reach the point where they are forced to start cancelling meetings due to low entries, the circuits won't care. As long as a given meeting is run, then the circuit owners get their money regardless of how many enter - it's the club that has to shoulder the risk here, just hoping they get enough entries to cover costs. As I understand it, the circuits charge a fixed rate for the hire - it's up to the club to cover that.

This needs to change. The circuits, however much they may want to ignore the fact, cannot survive on just the odd major event. Whether they'll admit it or not, they need us club racers, and as such, it's about time they actually started treating us like valued customers instead of a thorn in their sides.

Here's an example, and I'm only thinking out loud here, so don't shoot me down in flames if it could never work, but the point is, I've never heard of anyone trying to make it work: it concerns the price of fuel at circuits. I never buy it there, because the cost is scandalous - but why can't the cost actually be significantly lower at circuits? How? Well, farmers are allowed to buy red diesel at massively reduced cost because it's not being used in road vehicles. Race cars aren't road vehicles either, so could an argument be put to the government to allow fuel to be sold at race circuits with less tax, as it's not a road fuel. I appreciate it's probably a non-starter, but it's just an example of something circuits could do to try and help out their customers.

Or what about the circuit owners collaborating with some of the fuel companies in some sort of sponsorship deal to allow fuel to be sold to racers at circuits at some sort of discount or subsidy? I'm convinced that those with clout and a vested interest in seeing motorsport thrive could do more to bring down the costs without it necessarily eating into their profit margins. But until there's some kind of incentive for them to do so, it'll never happen - and with the current attitude of 'we get our money whatever happens, so why worry?', there is no incentive.

I wonder if attitudes will ever change, even when meetings do start getting cancelled and it starts hitting them financially? Of course, it may be too late by then for the sport to recover.

I see a bleak future for those of us trying to compete on a budget, and it's a shame because I'm sure there must be a better way. We really need some visionaries at the top level in some of the key organisations concerned - people who can see that greed isn't necessarily good and their bottom line could actually be improved by making it cheaper and more accessible to compete - 100 racers paying £100 is better than 30 racers paying £200.

[Al Weyman]

I put you last question 15 odd years ago to A top BARC official who replied he rather have the 100 racers as it was less work for him so with attitudes like that is it any wonder clubs are struggling.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Paul D

100 racers paying £100 is better than 30 racers paying £200.

Modern accountancy methods would have 30 racers paying £333 each to make the same target, oh that's what we have already isn't it.

[Minicross424]

Regarding some circuit owners your not wrong re us being a thorn in their side.
My local club runs all bar one of its events at a circuit that I won't name (if I say one mile in length, off the A2 near Dover.....) and we are the only circuit championship that has raced there this year.
They don't give a hoot about us because we are not drift cars or wide boys in lowered to the ground Saxo's.
We don't get people through the gate but they will keep us because I expect we help to pay for all the other stuff that runs there.
It's no surprise that other forms of motorsport are doing very well at the moment due to respecting its drivers.
Look at any of the stadium formulas, alot do not even pay to race in fact they get paid start money and prize money for bringing in the punters and putting on a show.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I put you last question 15 odd years ago to A top BARC official who replied he rather have the 100 racers as it was less work for him so with attitudes like that is it any wonder clubs are struggling.

Sorry that didnt read right I did it from my smart phone, it should have read that he would have prefered to have the 30 racers as it was less work for them.

[Al Weyman]

Well my IROC-Z will make a fabulous driftcar so maybe thats where I will go for the kicks as I am being priced out of racing thats for sure.

[GORDON STREETER]

It's not only the race entries that are "silly money" but everybody else wants their pound of flesh by updating things (seats/belts/clothing etc)that work perfectly well and have very little use throughout the year.
When I used to watch motor racing in the late 50s and early 60s a lot of the drivers were from moneyed families (Lords/politicians/big businesses etc) so it was out of reach for the "normal" man in the street, it's now getting very close to that again, although some people can't see it IMHO

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Paul D

This needs to change. The circuits, however much they may want to ignore the fact, cannot survive on just the odd major event. Whether they'll admit it or not, they need us club racers, and as such, it's about time they actually started treating us like valued customers instead of a thorn in their sides.

I think most circuits could survive without club racers - track days & corporate events are where the money's made.

[GORDON STREETER]

Obviously my rant isn't having a go at the BRSCC, but things in general as to whats happening in motorsports on road circuits,
It would be handy to get some feedback from the other side of "the pond" as regards costs.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I think most circuits could survive without club racers - track days & corporate events are where the money's made.

I personally think they can't. Remember the green thing and a lot of companies do not want to be seen as not green.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I think most circuits could survive without club racers - track days & corporate events are where the money's made.

I'm not so sure about that Dave. If the circuits were making more money out of trackdays and corporate days, then I reckon they’d have sacked us racers off from the prime weekend slots to run trackdays instead. Yet, apart from the off-season, most trackdays are run midweek (or if it is a weekend, I’ll wager it’s a weekend that no club wanted for racing), whilst the prime weekend slots are kept free for racing. Proof enough, I reckon, that they still make the most money from racing events. Can you really see Man. United holding premier league matches midweek just to free up Old Trafford at the weekends for a local five-a-side league? Never gonna happen is it, because they keep the prime slots for their best money makers.

Also, I think you have to factor in the idea that racing brings a certain amount of kudos to these venues for other activities. Racing is competitive, it’s about the fastest man and machine combination, on the limit. That can’t be said of trackdays, drifting, corporate or whatever. Let’s face it, part of the appeal for many people who attend corporate days or trackdays is that they’re getting to drive on a ‘proper’ racetrack, and they like to think they’re emulating ‘real’ racing drivers – take the racing away from the venue and I think some of the appeal is lost with it for the other stuff. It just becomes another venue, nothing special.

I think the truth is more likely to be that circuits need a varied portfolio of events to make money these days, and club racing is still very much an important part of that portfolio. Yes, no doubt they couldn’t survive just on club racing, but equally, I don’t reckon they could survive just on trackdays and corporate either.

Getting back to the cost of racing generally, Gordon also makes some good points about other areas where, as drivers, we’re regularly fleeced and forced to fork out on stuff that’s often completely unnecessary. I only do a handful of races each year (it’s all I can afford), so things in my car such as belts, seats, and my racing kit get very little use when you consider that a professional or semi-professional team (or even a wealthy club driver) could be clocking up more track time in a year than I do in five years – yet we’re being forced to replace items that in many cases have had little use and are in mint condition. But it’s another example of big organisations or companies being granted licence to fleece us and sit back watching the money roll in.

I’ve heard the argument before that it’s going to prove very difficult to police any other system, unless it’s based on date – but that’s just rubbish. I can provide a simple solution, right now, easy. Instead of a date label, you simply attach a label to every ‘lifed’ item, with a series of numbers on it – say 1 – 50. Each time the car enters an official event, the scrutineers punch a hole in the next number on the label, so the item’s life expires after an arbitrary number of events, in this case, 50. During that period, scrutineers can be given the discretion to decide if the item is otherwise satisfactory. This would be much fairer on the occasional competitor, allowing them to get more reasonable life out of these items. The current system generally penalises those who can least afford it, as I reckon most occasional competitiors are ‘occasional’ because it’s all they can afford to do, whereas the guys with plenty of money who are out racing 15 – 20 times a year are getting much better value out of their lifed items. A regular racer might have 60 races on a harness by the time he has to replace it – mine, which expires at the end of this year, will have seven or eight races on it! How bonkers is that?

[Al Weyman]

Good points Paul, one of my customers is a seat belt manufacture (road cars) and he said its ludicrous as well!

[simes43]

You can see the plight of the BRSCC in
black and white on TSL Timings website.

Running races for less than 10 cars at
Snetterton cannot be justified.

Or am I missing something?

[midgetman]

To get back vaguely on topic, it would appear that the common theme for events/clubs that are doing well is that they are providing VALUE FOR MONEY. Masters and HRDC are expensive, but the drivers in their series reckon its good value. CSCC and 750 are nowhere near as costly and provide what their members want.

I haven't raced with BRSCC for years but it sounds like they are not providing value and customers are voting with their wheels. In which case the BRSCC will have to change or fold. I'm sure most racers with them can find another home. The club doesn't have a right to exist just because it's been around for a long time, if you don't get the treatment you feel your £300 deserves then go somewhere else.

[midgetman]

Paul, apart from belts at twenty quid a year, what items are lifted for UK motor sport? Also, I presume yours may be a tad stretched by now?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I if you don't get the treatment you feel your £300 deserves then go somewhere else.

That's just the attitude that some clubs are taking, it's not good business, to survive you need to adapt to your customers needs but you of all people already know that don't you. I would say only the 750 club (can't agree with what you say about the CSCC) seems to put itself out and try and accommodate it's customer base the best it can, this doesn't include the likes of Masters etc. that has a totally different catchment area for want of a better term.

[midgetman]

You and I both aren't fans of the CSCC Tim, but there's huge numbers who disagree with us which is why I included the club. It sounds like the BRSCC won't survive, like you say many clubs forget who pays for their offices....

[R59]

The common sense approach is to fill up the grids.
If the BRSCC can cover the cost of a meeting with 10 cars on the grid paying £235 each, then 20 should be paying £118, 40 £59 (like that number!).

More people at the meeting = more money made on the concessions.
Busier meetings with good quality racing encourages people to go along and watch = more money for the circuit. Ergo, it is in the circuit's long term financial interest to fill up the stands, get good quality racing on the track at weekends, and pull in the cash.
Done properly, there's no reason why the insurance costs cannot be met by the gate, and therefore the people who are providing the "entertainment" do so for free.

However, we don't to things properly over here in the UK!

Scratched record now being returned to sleeve ready for next related thread...

[Al Weyman]

But all of that means extra work for people who are running the shows and they don't like that.

[billyboy205gti]

i've mentioned this elsewhere before, but, you can't have MSVR and other circuit owners continuing to charge the rates they do. But some of that is down to Bernie... Silverstone charge a fortune to pay for the GP, and therefore as the premier circuit the rest take thier que from what they charge. MSVR made EDBIT of 20% in 2012. Someone is having a laugh.

As for lowering costs, I don't fully subscribe to less well supported championships being propped up by the bigger ones, as the club just looks at revenue as a whole, you would need 300 stock hatch entries to amke a 750 mc meeting at Brands viable for example. So if they get 30 here, and 25 there and 8 somewhere else, it all counts.

However, the MSA do need to put together a working group that discusses the various costs accrued in club motor racing, be it circuit hire, motor club profits, spectator income, insurances, safety equipment, and come up with something that works better, is more coherent..

We ( club racing ) need to find a way to get punters into circuit to watch races at £5 ph, we only need a 1000 and suddenly that £20k/30k/40k even 50k circuit hire becomes less of a problem. Maybe then entries could be a nominal £50, and it wouldn't matter if the championship is poorly supported, because a) no one would begrudge a £50 entry fee, and b) more people would be (re) encouraged to enter as it would be more affordable.

The solution lies with the MSA, they have to find a way to make the circuits, clubs and competitors work together for the benefit of the sport. Getting spectators into a meeting is 'route 1' to making it work.

As a last example I see a club race as the footballing equivalent of Division 3. And they get 1-2000 spectators per game, paying a lot more than a fiver. Castle Coombe used to get 10k plus. So it can happen.