TIER 1 MOTOR RACING, DOES IT STILl EXIST WITH CREDIBIITY

[socram]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Going on from there the loss of GT3, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZ V8 utes all compounded the problem. So the summer series moved from being a series with mainly unique classes that only ran in that series to a cobbled up series with a lot of classes that can be seen elsewhere free or very cheap.

The package NZV8, TRS, GT3, Formula Ford, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZV8 utes all unique to the summer series was very marketable and probably the most successful series ever run in this country.

Sadly, although those classes may have been unique to the tier 1 meetings, apart from GT3 and Formula Ford, they are all effectively '1/2 make' series and I'd suggest that is the real root of the problem. Even in their heyday, neither Minis nor Suzuki Swifts had large numbers and neither are or were a drawcard.

Whether a series can be seen elsewhere or not is irrelevant. If it is good racing (however you want to assess 'good') the paying spectators are happy enough.

In my 30 years in NZ, I would say that the short series of Benson & Hedges and Nissan Mobil type races, with whatever support races they ran, were far more successful than anything in recent times.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

The first nail in the coffin was the NZST breakaway, forget the politics and who's right or wrong that split started the rot.

Going on from there the loss of GT3, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZ V8 utes all compounded the problem. So the summer series moved from being a series with mainly unique classes that only ran in that series to a cobbled up series with a lot of classes that can be seen elsewhere free or very cheap.

The package NZV8, TRS, GT3, Formula Ford, Mini Challenge, Suzuki and NZV8 utes all unique to the summer series was very marketable and probably the most successful series ever run in this country.

Wrong Bill, yes you were technically a director of TMC, but you like most people were kept in the dark. Martin Fine ran TMC like a Fiefdom, you and MSNZ were deliberately kept in the dark and if you say that you knew everything that went on, then frankly you are as guilty as Martin Fine and co in trading whilst insolvent. I don't think you knew the truth of the situation you were just guilty of being to loyal.

You question you need to ask yourself is, why there was a break away in the first place? If you were really interested in knowing why, you would then understand what lead to that breakaway in the first place. I am not going to air the dirty laundry in a public place but more that happy to show you the volume's of evidence we amassed back then.

[Goat Boy]

I quite liked the GT3's as long as we had Bairdo, Halliday and Reid running. True enough most of the rest were journeymen but grid numbers were okay and things used to get pretty heated up front!

I agree with Ray, I loved the old Group A's but we've already had that discussion on another thread. Although it's interesting to see that as far as power plants go, V8SC's model for the future includes fours, sixes and turbos so someone should rock up with a Skyline GTR!

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

…….. I have not included any mention of Classic Racing. I believe that they are very successful in there own right and should not be compared with current series events. Although they do bring through the gate the few dedicated petrol heads who will go to any event, they also pull from a large group of classic petrol heads who may only ever attend classic meetings.

So in my view we should compare Current with current, classics with classics, Bikes with bikes etc.

You can't substitute Classic racing with Tier 1 racing as Classic racing could never, from a matter of principle, take Tier 1's place.

However, I believe you can compare them if only to demonstrate the mire that Tier 1 is in. When you look at the entrant and spectator numbers at the top Classic meetings, they are not indicative of a sport in crisis. By comparison the entrant and spectator numbers at Tier 1 are pathetic but I don't think it is reflective of disinterest in the sport - just disinterest in the Tier 1 product.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

The first nail in the coffin was the NZST breakaway, forget the politics and who's right or wrong that split started the rot.

For me as a spectator the first sign of rot was sitting in the grand stand watching an Austin Powers impersonator “entertain” the crowd 3 years after “do you think I’m sexy baby” stopped being funny....

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by RogerH

When you look at the entrant and spectator numbers at the top Classic meetings, they are not indicative of a sport in crisis. By comparison the entrant and spectator numbers at Tier 1 are pathetic but I don't think it is reflective of disinterest in the sport - just disinterest in the Tier 1 product.

The problem is, 30 years ago the silver haired mob you see at Classic meetings were young-ish dudes piling into the back of a PB Vauxhall to join the throngs of other young dudes on the Hill at Pukekohe...... Fast forward thirty years from now they'll all be dead and today's pathetic Tier 1 will be a pathetic classic crowd....

Small Blacks TV isn't produced by the NZRU because they want to get more Kids to test matches.... It's produced to get more kids to want to go to test matches rather than Basketball matches.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Wrong Bill, yes you were technically a director of TMC, but you like most people were kept in the dark. Martin Fine ran TMC like a Fiefdom, you and MSNZ were deliberately kept in the dark and if you say that you knew everything that went on, then frankly you are as guilty as Martin Fine and co in trading whilst insolvent. I don't think you knew the truth of the situation you were just guilty of being to loyal.

You question you need to ask yourself is, why there was a break away in the first place? If you were really interested in knowing why, you would then understand what lead to that breakaway in the first place. I am not going to air the dirty laundry in a public place but more that happy to show you the volume's of evidence we amassed back then.

Mark all I was trying to point out is what went wrong perhaps more from a Joe Public spectator point of view.

All the politics, infighting and bulls**t was not generally public when the Series was going downhill.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

The problem is, 30 years ago the silver haired mob you see at Classic meetings were young-ish dudes piling into the back of a PB Vauxhall to join the throngs of other young dudes on the Hill at Pukekohe...... Fast forward thirty years from now they'll all be dead and today's pathetic Tier 1 will be a pathetic classic crowd....

Small Blacks TV isn't produced by the NZRU because they want to get more Kids to test matches.... It's produced to get more kids to want to go to test matches rather than Basketball matches.

You are probably right that the Classic fraternity is predominantly guys on the downside of 50 years old that aren't going to be active forever.

Another example of the positive latent interest in the sport is the success of the 2K Cup (a non-MSNZ initiative). We ran a one day club meeting in December and had 86 entrants just for the 2K Cup grid. Most of these were entrants new to the sport who were just looking for the opportunity to compete at a level that didn't break the budget. Maybe we need to concentrate at this level to convert the potential competitors lurking out there and get the ex-karters to move to the first level of circuit racing in a format that is competitive and financially achievable.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Bill Brown

Mark all I was trying to point out is what went wrong perhaps more from a Joe Public spectator point of view.

All the politics, infighting and bulls**t was not generally public when the Series was going downhill.

Fair enough Bill, you are correct in saying that when the series was going downhill the shite-fight [because of what was happening] was behind closed door's.

However, you also know that it was Martin Fine backed by MSNZ, who fought us all the way to court in a very public matter, using what was was left of NZV8, etc, that tore the class's apart in a far more public way that should have ever have happened.

Lets, just suppose that MSNZ had embraced V8ST when they turned up on the grid for their very first race at Hampton Downs, with 16 Car's, and didn't get commercially involved with advancing monies to NZV8, owning the IP to the TLX car etc.

The Joe public spectator would have thought wow awesome man just look at those car's etc.

I am not suggesting that the above scenario would have fixed the current problem, because at Tier One level it's basically unfixable, at least from a spectator point of view. Never the less, if MSNZ had of possessed the nounce to 'Glue' everything together, instead of buying into Martin's favorite tactic of "Divide and Conquer" we would be in a lot better shape than we are in now.

[Goat Boy]

Amen to that!

[promax]

if ST didn't try to bury NZV8.. we would be in a lot better shape than we are in now. it wasn't just one side that tried to use the 'Divide and Conquer' approach.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by promax

if ST didn't try to bury NZV8.. we would be in a lot better shape than we are in now. it wasn't just one side that tried to use the 'Divide and Conquer' approach.

If only you knew the truth Promax.

[Icarus_nz]

At the point that the sport appeared strongest it was rotten to the core.

After 30 years in the sport I haven't bothered to renew my club membership or license. It's the only 'vote' I'm allowed.

[Ugy]

Ambush, divide and conquer and then chase your own tail.

[BlueBlood]

So we had one V8 series with ageing cars, but the grids were full and the public supported it.
Then a renegade bunch decided they would split away and reinvent the wheel.
This new series would be nirvana and all who did not join would be destroyed by its popularity.
But it cost too much, it divided the purist fans and has curtailed the careers of almost all of those well known racers that the public followed.

And now it's MSNZ fault for not gluing the series back together? Huh?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

At the point that the sport appeared strongest it was rotten to the core.

After 30 years in the sport I haven't bothered to renew my club membership or license. It's the only 'vote' I'm allowed.

Exactly, Icarus, and through out this sorry saga MSNZ acted in the same manner as what is referred to by Psychologists as the "ostrich problem" - and the rest is history.

[promax]

Originally Posted by BlueBlood

So we had one V8 series with ageing cars, but the grids were full and the public supported it.
Then a renegade bunch decided they would split away and reinvent the wheel.
This new series would be nirvana and all who did not join would be destroyed by its popularity.
But it cost too much, it divided the purist fans and has curtailed the careers of almost all of those well known racers that the public followed.

And now it's MSNZ fault for not gluing the series back together? Huh?

c'mon blue.. you know it's always the other's sides fault

[socram]

To get back on track, what is the fix for tier 1 - or do we dump the name altogether and start again?

I'd suggest that any a top level meeting needs a mix, therefore, to restart the ball rolling my suggestion is a basic format:

1) A decent single seater grid - personally, I'd rather watch a grid of noisy F5000's than TRS, but I'll accept that the TRS is supposedly our top class. Decent also means numbers, so that could just as easily be Formula Fords or even a Formula Libre grid, as there must be so many fairly quick redundant single seaters around that should be out racing. Someone just needs to step up and encourage them to keep running.

2) A GT grid of some sort - which adds glamour and exotica. Or, maybe substitute for open race saloons such as the old OSCA/TRANSAM.

3) A large (production) saloons grid, whereby I'd rather see all the current V8 saloons lumped together to make one decent grid. Class racing has been going for 100 years. If it also needs a 2 or 3 litre class, to boost numbers so be it.

4) Just one, Utes grid (if you must) - sorry, more than one grid of utes is not going to attract the punters. It can be Ssang Yong at some rounds, Holden/Ford at others if it is has to be part of the current fabric of racing.

5) Probably one of the Muscle car grids - and it doesn't need to be a national series - different groups at different events is fine. The punters don't care, but you have to cut out a fair bit of the costs and that means minimal or no island hopping.

The balance at any meeting should then be left to the host club, but whatever happens, if you can't get a minimum of 150 cars, it just can't be a top level meeting.

I'm no great fan of modern one make/model racing and they haven't come up with the numbers to justify inclusion. Even the MSNZ dictate of 15 cars isn't enough. So no room for Toyota 86's, Suzuki Swifts or Minis or any other thinly disguised 'advertising budget spend'.

Any two day meeting can therefore have a different flavour according to the hosts. If they want to run the remainder of their grids for U2K Cup, Porsche. Alfa, Classics, Austin 7's or Porsches, relay races, endurance races, karts, Reliant Robins, it should be their choice, but the same bland, tiny grids are not now and never have been a spectator or sponsor draw card.

Over to the rest of you. Move forwards with a plan or a suggestion, as there is nothing to be gained from airing the dirty washing again.

[Samwhk]

Originally Posted by socram

To get back on track, what is the fix for tier 1 - or do we dump the name altogether and start again?

I'd suggest that any a top level meeting needs a mix, therefore, to restart the ball rolling my suggestion is a basic format:

1) A decent single seater grid - personally, I'd rather watch a grid of noisy F5000's than TRS, but I'll accept that the TRS is supposedly our top class. Decent also means numbers, so that could just as easily be Formula Fords or even a Formula Libre grid, as there must be so many fairly quick redundant single seaters around that should be out racing. Someone just needs to step up and encourage them to keep running.

2) A GT grid of some sort - which adds glamour and exotica. Or, maybe substitute for open race saloons such as the old OSCA/TRANSAM.

3) A large (production) saloons grid, whereby I'd rather see all the current V8 saloons lumped together to make one decent grid. Class racing has been going for 100 years. If it also needs a 2 or 3 litre class, to boost numbers so be it.

4) Just one, Utes grid (if you must) - sorry, more than one grid of utes is not going to attract the punters. It can be Ssang Yong at some rounds, Holden/Ford at others if it is has to be part of the current fabric of racing.

5) Probably one of the Muscle car grids - and it doesn't need to be a national series - different groups at different events is fine. The punters don't care, but you have to cut out a fair bit of the costs and that means minimal or no island hopping.

The balance at any meeting should then be left to the host club, but whatever happens, if you can't get a minimum of 150 cars, it just can't be a top level meeting.

I'm no great fan of modern one make/model racing and they haven't come up with the numbers to justify inclusion. Even the MSNZ dictate of 15 cars isn't enough. So no room for Toyota 86's, Suzuki Swifts or Minis or any other thinly disguised 'advertising budget spend'.

Any two day meeting can therefore have a different flavour according to the hosts. If they want to run the remainder of their grids for U2K Cup, Porsche. Alfa, Classics, Austin 7's or Porsches, relay races, endurance races, karts, Reliant Robins, it should be their choice, but the same bland, tiny grids are not now and never have been a spectator or sponsor draw card.

Over to the rest of you. Move forwards with a plan or a suggestion, as there is nothing to be gained from airing the dirty washing again.

Now THAT sounds like a series I could get behind.

[Goat Boy]

I love the Muscle Cars, any form is good.

[Goat Boy]

And the GT's as long as they're genuinely fast. Speaking of which, Bathurst 12-Hour is coming up - anyone know where we can get streaming coverage?

[20b]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

And the GT's as long as they're genuinely fast. Speaking of which, Bathurst 12-Hour is coming up - anyone know where we can get streaming coverage?

The event is being streamed on the Bathurst 12 Hour website live.

[mountainstar]

First I'll say that I remember 20 plus years ago when IMSA sportscar racing in the USA just about imploded and there was a tug of war within the community. On one hand you had rich guys that were content to run a professional sportscar series as an amateur series that made enough revenue to cover costs and couldn't care whether people turned up at the track or not or watched on TV. And then on the other hand you had those that wanted a professional series that maximized bringing in spectators, tv viewers, sponsors and manufacturers.

I seem the same struggle here. For those guys that can afford $50K-$500k cars they need to decide if they are in it to race with the only care being they are top dog Tier 1 series. Or are they are genuinely interested in maxing out the value to the public and running it as a professional business.

If they don't give a damn about spectators turning up, they don't care about sponsors, they don't care about tv coverage, then it doesn't matter what they race and when and where they do it.

If they do care, then the entire approach of those involved has to change.

[socram]

A piece in today's NZ Herald that MSNZ have hired a promotions company who want to bring the 'entertainment' to a meeting. If that means a crappy modern, very loud tuneless band, count me out. I go to a race meeting to see cars, preferably plenty of them and a fair few different makes and models.

If the cars aren't even there in the first place, forget about paying out even more for off track entertainment, as there won't be anyone to be entertained.

At the 1964 British GP at Brands Hatch, they had my favourite jazz band playing (still my favourite...) AFTER the event, to try and minimize the traffic chaos getting away after the racing. I can't see that as a necessity at any current NZ meeting.

(As a postscript, Chris Barber also had a Lotus Elan entered for the GT race, driven by Mike Beckwith.)

[mikuni]

Article here
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/new...ectid=11393679

It really feels like they are desperate, they have no idea and are trying everything. I mean, bands, dj's and combing Motorsport with other sports like cycling? Seriously, what are they even thinking? It's almost like they have decided that there is no future in Motorsport so they are just going to start having other festivals and events at tracks, and if some cars happening o be going round the track at the same time then that's a bonus.

There is just one area in there that gives me any hope, and that's when the guy says we need bigger grids.

But then seriously, he's a rugby player. What could a rugby player ever know about growin Motorsport in nz?