[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Frankel/s...98009372336128

"How serious is Porsche about it's LM programme? Their 2015 car will be all new and they're working on it now, before the 2014 car has raced."

Nothin odd about that Spyder ..... its the Porsche way .

But good to see they have found something out and have addressed it so soon .

[Spyderman]

Its always fun speculating on this:
It's possible that they have found something out that will require a major redesign, or it could be that they are working on the basis of the 2015 car (similar to the 2013/2014 car) but will have all the benefits of what they have learned in testing and what they will learn in the 2014 season.

[Richard C]

Two thoughts...

1. It's not uncommon in F1 for a team to have two design teams working at the same exact time. One for the current car and one for the next. I think some teams even leapfrog (Team #1 working on 2014 and eventually 2016, while Team #2 works on 2015 and eventually 2017). And clearly there is some level of top level design (you don't have two of everything). I am not surprised to hear this concept happening in WEC and at Porsche and I would expect that to some degree it is happening at Audi, etc. To the points above, I think we are just hearing more from Porsche than the others.

2. It would be interesting to know if "all new" means "all new" (including monocoque). But again, I am not totally surprised if they know now that they will not carry the 2014 monocoque over to 2015. The regulations are still new and I would expect that the amount of things all the teams are learning right now would be large which also means (if you have the budget) nothing is sacred and is subject to change. However, they will also want to keep whatever works. And we (and them) don't know what 2014 concepts may work well and survive into 2015. I mentioned budget above as well. I expect cranking out a new (likely tweaked) monocoque design is less costly than a totally new engine design. I am not saying they are off on the engine design, but rather a total redesign in some areas is likely easier to get approval for as the cost is acceptable.

If the regulations were stable (i.e. we had been using this formula for years), then I would expect the successful team to be putting in place evolutionary designs with the potential for a given monocoque to carry over from one year to the next.

Richard

[Spyderman]

I will be surprised if the engine layout changes for 2015. I do however, expect to see an evolution (development) in that area.

[MyNameIsNigel]

A very intriguing comment by Mike on the Mulsanne's Corner FB page:

The Porsche program is having MAJOR issues, more on that later after i get out of my Sebring haze

[Gingers4Justice]

I wonder what they could be? Although the chassis regulations are new, I can't imagine anything like that could be classed as a major issue. Surely that means we're looking at something power-train related. Many sources at Porsche have made a big song and dance about the fact the decision to go with a V4 was made very early into the program - surely they wouldn't be so quick to mention that if this was a serious issue for the programme? We heard about the vibrations, but I'd class that as teething troubles.

So are we possibly looking at something to do with the hybrid system itself? We've heard rumours of 919s burning to the ground...maybe they're having issues with energy storage, or the reliability of the technology...

I've speculated so much in one post that I've basically said nothing at all, just thought I'd think out loud.

[templer]

If we look at the 919 we find a quite conventional suspension layout and a conventional aero even if they claim more than 2000 hours in the wind tunnel which is immense. Peugeot claimed for the 908 HDI-FAP more than 600 hours.
But even compared with private efforts like the Ligier LMP2 or the Dome S103 the 919 followed very brave lines.
But these two things are still possible to redevelop and Change during the season, though you can't switch from a classic spring/damper System to torsion bars.
But I think Porsche's major problems are drivetrain related. They have reliliabilty issues and if I look at the Sebring times they are down on power. And after the many test miles they have done, it seems they are not able to solve them completely. Maybe they have chosen the wrong engine/hybrid combination

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

.......Many sources at Porsche have made a big song and dance about the fact the decision to go with a V4 was made very early into the program - surely they wouldn't be so quick to mention that if this was a serious issue for the programme? We heard about the vibrations, but I'd class that as teething troubles.....

You nailed it in the first part above! So early in the program, that no one spoke to an engineer to see if this is actually a good idea to begin with

But vibrations are not teething troubles in this case. A V4 is about the worse thing you can put in a car if the engine is a stressed element. Yes, there are interviews that say it all been solved, crank redesign, yada, yada - but truth is no crank redesign or firing order will make a V4 perform well when it comes to vibrations, more precisely in displacement amplitude (the acceleration numbers are no picnic either). I will not be surprised if the entire redesign is so they can switch to a different layout engine.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by deltawing

You nailed it in the first part above! So early in the program, that no one spoke to an engineer to see if this is actually a good idea to begin with

But vibrations are not teething troubles in this case. A V4 is about the worse thing you can put in a car if the engine is a stressed element. Yes, there are interviews that say it all been solved, crank redesign, yada, yada - but truth is no crank redesign or firing order will make a V4 perform well when it comes to vibrations, more precisely in displacement amplitude (the acceleration numbers are no picnic either). I will not be surprised if the entire redesign is so they can switch to a different layout engine.

Perhaps I have too much faith in Porsche's engineers to overcome those issues. The V4 is rather unconventional, as you say, but I assumed there was method to the madness and it was the engineers themselves who decided the V4 was the best solution to the new regulations.

Then again, I'm young and and easily impressionable and I still buy half the PR crap that comes my way

I think Porsche wanted to raise a few eyebrows with their engine choice, and they certainly did that - but at what cost?

[Spyderman]

Soooo Sad!

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Perhaps I have too much faith in Porsche's engineers to overcome those issues.

And we all do! I am absolutely certain Porsche has some of the best engineers on this planet. Personally, I can't wait to hear about the new car!

[nkoske]

The 2006 to 2007 RS Spyders were considerably different. Why would it be a surprise if the 919 has a similar evolution?

[CTD]

I really dont hope that Le Mans develops into 1-2year old cars, instead of the current 3 years of use.
It would seriously increase the needed cost to be a top tier team.

However lets wait and see about these problems, its Porsche, they dont things half or without proper thought

[Richard C]

So... I hate those who tease. If you have something to say, say it. If you can't talk about something, then don't until you can. Sigh...

Anyhow, the thread on Mulsanne's Corner FB page has Mike pretty much heavily hinting it is engine and vibration related. If you take the next logical step, I would assume something happened at Sebring that was vibration related. I will try to not speculate beyond that.

Richard

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So... I hate those who tease. If you have something to say, say it. If you can't talk about something, then don't until you can. Sigh...

Anyhow, the thread on Mulsanne's Corner FB page has Mike pretty much heavily hinting it is engine and vibration related. If you take the next logical step, I would assume something happened at Sebring that was vibration related. I will try to not speculate beyond that.

Richard

Ties in with the whispers that Porsche had to change an engine.

[Mal]

Porsche are not infallible, they have today announced that they are to recall the entire production of the latest 911 GT3 road car..... they are having to replace the entire engine in every car!

[chernaudi]

It was rumored that Porsche had engine difficulties during the test, which might explain in part why they never challenged the Audi pace (fast laps being a 1:42.6 and a 1:45.8, which that's a slow race pace lap it seems possibly from Audi if they ran at Sebring), and why, even if they stayed one day longer than Audi, they only ran a bit more than half the distance that Audi did.

In Lanky Turtle's video, it was reported that while Audi did a very long race-sim type run, the Porsche was in and out of the pits until well into the afternoon, and some of it's pit/garage stays were fairly lengthy.

Sort of disconcerting for Porsche with reports of people leaving/joining the program and mechanical problems, especially if such reports have some serious truth to them.

[gwyllion]

Speaking at the Sky Sports F1 media day to theCheckeredFlag.co.uk Davidson said “They’ve got such a tricky engine configuration and energy recovery systems that I’d be surprised if they’re really quick to start with, or reliable.”

The Toyota driver explained that he had heard that the Porsche drivers were experiencing issues with extreme vibrations in the cockpit, so much so they are having trouble seeing properly and struggling to breathe.

He added that reliability concerns has meant losing some power output, “They had to turn the power down massively to stop the engine from breaking”.

source: http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/20...ling-919-lmp1/

[chernaudi]

Again if true, and there seems to be something to this per Mike and others, it might be an Audi vs Toyota show again this year. Both Audi and TMG have the edge on Porsche just by being in the game the past few years and having practical experience, as well as Audi and Toyota sticking with evolutions of their proven V6 diesel and gasoline V8 engines.

Considering that the Porsche doesn't have the torsion bar springs in the front suspension that Audi and TMG are still probably using (Audi are even still running a pullrod rear suspension), that the car's design even now seems a bit conservative compared to Audi (which is a heavily revised evo of the old R18 aero wise) and what little we've seen from Toyota and the radical engine package, I'd have to say that they're likely having issues. It seem a few major ones, and several others less serious.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Again if true, and there seems to be something to this per Mike and others, it might be an Audi vs Toyota show again this year.

These are exciting times. Engineers and designers are thinking outside the box while being forced to think within very narrow energy source restrictions.

Interesting seeing which theories are working out and which are requiring adjustments. I'll add, these are historic times.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It was rumored that Porsche had engine difficulties during the test, which might explain in part why they never challenged the Audi pace (fast laps being a 1:42.6 and a 1:45.8, which that's a slow race pace lap it seems possibly from Audi if they ran at Sebring), and why, even if they stayed one day longer than Audi, they only ran a bit more than half the distance that Audi did.

In Lanky Turtle's video, it was reported that while Audi did a very long race-sim type run, the Porsche was in and out of the pits until well into the afternoon, and some of it's pit/garage stays were fairly lengthy.

Sort of disconcerting for Porsche with reports of people leaving/joining the program and mechanical problems, especially if such reports have some serious truth to them.

Well that is perhaps a little too behind, ~3 sec. But even Porsche stated that the "strategy" is not going faster but further than the competition... they intend to make more laps per stint... not bad strategy since the time lost in each stop can be over 1 min.

Since the fuel energies are not that a very big delta compared to diesel (still fuel tanks favors them) ... it means they will have to go slower in any case: if they manage to make less 6 stops than an Audi, in Le Mans that is 7.8 minutes, and they can afford to be ~1 sec slower yet have a very good chance to win... perhaps here the why a V4

In 6 hours and slower circuits this strategy is worst if the "slower" is not only in straights but also in "torque"( corner acceleration)... hybrid is equalized ... so perhaps that is why the "turbo", and why the 6MJ-> they need more fuel flow to have more power.

But yeap!... with ~3 secs behind they are pretty much out of the wins... unless they could do more than 10 stops less (Le Mans reference) than an Audi as example, which is quite doubtful, unless diffs per lap start being 5 sec or more, that is, trade speed and power for fuel economy, and start pacing well below the max fuel flows allowed... a rock and hard place...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

source: http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/20...ling-919-lmp1/

Read that a few days ago. Was going to post but figured it was old news!

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by TF110

Read that a few days ago. Was going to post but figured it was old news!

Wow that's pretty extreme.

"The Toyota driver explained that he had heard that the Porsche drivers were experiencing issues with extreme vibrations in the cockpit, so much so they are having trouble seeing properly and struggling to breathe."

Guess that hear say from one driver to another driver is pretty good source. I would imagine that those problems would need a big redesign of the engine to get rid of those vibrations.

[MyNameIsNigel]

It's unclear however if Davidson is actually referring to discussions with Porsche drivers that took place before or after the changes that have been made to the engine, which included the design of a new crankshaft. These changes were reported to have substantially eliminated the vibrations issues.

Now, we also hear from Davidson that they had to turn down the engine power in view of reliability worries.

Is there something fundamentally flawed with the V4 ?

[TF110]

I figured it was old news because of when the question was posed to him. Its before their latest test at Sebring at least.