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View Poll Results: Who will be the 2019 VASC Series Winning Driver?
#2 Mobil1/Mega, WAU Holden - Scott Pye 0 0%
#3 Rabble Club, KR Nissan - Garry Jacobson 0 0%
#5 The Bottle O, Tickford Ford - Lee Holdsworth 0 0%
#6 Monster Energy, Tickford Ford - Cam Waters 0 0%
#7 Kelly Racing, KR Nissan - Andre Heimgartner 0 0%
#8 Brad Jones Racing, BJR Holden - Nick Percat 0 0%
#9 Penrite Racing, Erebus Holden - David Reynolds 9 23.08%
#12 Shell V Power, DJRTP Ford - Fabian Coulthard 0 0%
#14 Freightliner, BJR Holden - Tim Slade 0 0%
#15 Castrol Racing, KR Nissan - Rick Kelly 0 0%
#17 Shell V Power, DJRTP Ford - Scott McLaughlin 17 43.59%
#18 Irwin Racing, Chasports Holden - Mark Winterbottom 1 2.56%
#19 Truck Assist, Tekno Holden - Jack Le Brocq 0 0%
#21 Cooldrive Auto Parts, BJR Holden - Macauley Jones 0 0%
#22 Mobil1/Mega, WAU Holden - James Courtney 0 0%
#23 Milwaukee Racing, 23Red Ford - Will Davison 0 0%
#33 Boost Mobile, GRM Holden - Richie Stanaway 0 0%
#34 Boost Mobile, GRM Holden - James Golding 1 2.56%
#35 Optus Racing, MSR Holden - Todd Hazelwood 0 0%
#55 SuperCheap Auto, Tickford Ford - Chaz Mostert 2 5.13%
#78 Harvey Norman, KR Nissan - Simona De Silvestro 0 0%
#88 Red Bull Holden, RBHRT Holden - Jamie Whincup 2 5.13%
#97 Red Bull Holden, RBHRT Holden - Shane Van Gisbergen 7 17.95%
#99 Penrite Racing, Erebus Holden - Anton de Pasquale 0 0%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 26 Mar 2019, 04:22 (Ref:3893395)   #1451
djr81
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Looks for all the world like Supercars are going to hobble the Mustangs for Tassie.

My question is this: If they want an aero and a COG adjustment why dont they just make them bolt on roof racks and carry some luggage?
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 04:59 (Ref:3893399)   #1452
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Looks for all the world like Supercars are going to hobble the Mustangs for Tassie.

My question is this: If they want an aero and a COG adjustment why dont they just make them bolt on roof racks and carry some luggage?
Or raise the nose to be the same height as the roadcar?
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 05:09 (Ref:3893401)   #1453
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The commodores look more aero to me, they have much more rake on their front windscreen.
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 05:31 (Ref:3893403)   #1454
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Reading the Speedcafe article. They expect a COG change to the Mustang for this weekend.

The ZB will also get a COG tweak too! Sounds like the poor Nissan was really suffering in this department.


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Old 26 Mar 2019, 06:45 (Ref:3893411)   #1455
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How long has the Nissan been suffering is the big question - it may have always been at a deficit.

A more thorough homologation process might have seen the Altima more successful, who knows. Maybe Nissan would have continued the factory involvment?
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 07:19 (Ref:3893413)   #1456
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Or raise the nose to be the same height as the roadcar?
Probably be happy to, as soon as they car lower the roof to the factory levels too.

Add drag by being forced to raise the roof, reduce added drag by sculpting the nose. Don't make them do one and don't allow them to do the other. The Holden Motorsport machine fanning these flames conveniently neglects to mention that bit though.

Rather convenient that CofG tests can be done so simply after all. Has only been an issue since the VF was introduced with its aluminium bonnet etc. Only gets worth investigating properly as soon as Roland is the one at a disadvantage though.
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 07:37 (Ref:3893417)   #1457
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Rather convenient that CofG tests can be done so simply after all. Has only been an issue since the VF was introduced with its aluminium bonnet etc. Only gets worth investigating properly as soon as Roland is the one at a disadvantage though.
Im not a fan of Roland or T888 in any way, but to better his team by any legal means is his role, and if that includes whingeing to authorities so be it. It is more a fault of the Ford principals for failing to whinge effectively when they felt hard done by. Yes they may have whinged to no result, but perhaps that is just inefficient or badly worded whingeing on their part. Just a thought
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 08:41 (Ref:3893437)   #1458
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Spot on.

It's a game of politics. Some are very good at it.
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 08:54 (Ref:3893440)   #1459
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Underhanded lobbying for freedoms, combined with foxing to look more hard-done by; was what effectively ended up killing off Group C.

Might this be a case of history repeating itself?
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 09:31 (Ref:3893446)   #1460
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Ford/FPR attempted to address the issue in 2014 with the homologation of the FGX. Prior to this the category increased the minimum weight with the cotf/FG2 struggling to meet min weights.

Supercars declined, Ford got on with the job. Ford got to play catch up with the Mustang and for the trouble they get to suffer the howls from the other side where they are effectively being called cheats.

Solo politics might be fun for some, but like other unmentionable solo activities the enjoyment is vastly enhanced with a willing partner.

Holden aren't so much playing politics as they are bringing the sport into disrepute, but hey as long as the referee keeps letting them get away with it.

But then they may just end up playing solo again too.
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 12:27 (Ref:3893476)   #1461
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Im not a fan of Roland or T888 in any way, but to better his team by any legal means is his role, and if that includes whingeing to authorities so be it. It is more a fault of the Ford principals for failing to whinge effectively when they felt hard done by. Yes they may have whinged to no result, but perhaps that is just inefficient or badly worded whingeing on their part. Just a thought
To me it seems that if you're going to complain, you need a good case. Last year we saw complaints from Ford teams (Mr Storey in particular) regarding Holden bodywork - deemed to be within the rules but the rules were amended to maintain parity.

This year we have complaints about the Moosetang, which I'm assuming is also within the rules but there is a possibility that the rules may get amended to achieve parity.
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 13:16 (Ref:3893489)   #1462
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Underhanded lobbying for freedoms, combined with foxing to look more hard-done by; was what effectively ended up killing off Group C.

Might this be a case of history repeating itself?
Bit dramatic isnt it ??

Never mind the Series as we know it is being killed off by non existence of Australian cars IMHO
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 18:28 (Ref:3893531)   #1463
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To me it seems that if you're going to complain, you need a good case. Last year we saw complaints from Ford teams (Mr Storey in particular) regarding Holden bodywork - deemed to be within the rules but the rules were amended to maintain parity.

This year we have complaints about the Moosetang, which I'm assuming is also within the rules but there is a possibility that the rules may get amended to achieve parity.
Problem is this isn't a case of amending rules - there are no CoG rules!
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 20:32 (Ref:3893551)   #1464
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Problem is this isn't a case of amending rules - there are no CoG rules!
There are actually CoG rules but for the engine only. When they were brought in, one of the key people pushing for them was Mr Edwards and he had a lot to say at the time about the benefits of CoG.

In any case, adding new CoG rules IS amending the rules - any addition, change or deletion to the rule book is an amendment.
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 21:05 (Ref:3893556)   #1465
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I'd consider an amendment something minor, wether it be addition, subtraction, whatever.

It's quite disingenuous to suggest the addition of a rule that seems to have such a great effect on performance is "minor".

Not to mention the most important fact - the Mustang was signed off by Supercars themselves. Why change anything? Were they wrong the first time?
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 22:52 (Ref:3893569)   #1466
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Originally Posted by djr81 View Post
Looks for all the world like Supercars are going to hobble the Mustangs for Tassie.

My question is this: If they want an aero and a COG adjustment why dont they just make them bolt on roof racks and carry some luggage?
*Holden's baggage
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 00:04 (Ref:3893572)   #1467
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I'd consider an amendment something minor, wether it be addition, subtraction, whatever.

It's quite disingenuous to suggest the addition of a rule that seems to have such a great effect on performance is "minor".

Not to mention the most important fact - the Mustang was signed off by Supercars themselves. Why change anything? Were they wrong the first time?
OK so that's just semantics then - you consider an amendment to be only a minor item, many (including me) consider an amendment to be any change to (in this case) the rules. Same thing applies with legislation, treaties etc - common for there to be amendments, some are minor in nature, some substantive but they are all amendments.

Anyway, you have your view and neither of us agree with the other on this point clearly so end of discussion really.

Mustang was signed off (as was the current Commodore) but further information from on track performance and input from rival brand teams led to a rules amendment for Commodore and MAY result in a rules amendment that impacts Mustang.

Completely professional way for supercars to do the job - no point burying heads in the sand if there's a genuine need to make a change.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 01:08 (Ref:3893581)   #1468
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no point burying heads in the sand if there's a genuine need to make a change.
The geniune need appears to be Holden isnt winning. As ever it prompts a parity adjustment. Less so the other way around.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 01:09 (Ref:3893582)   #1469
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Completely professional way for supercars to do the job - no point burying heads in the sand if there's a genuine need to make a change.
So the homologation process has stayed the same for so long because??? Anyone with any knowledge has always questioned it's accuracy, yet no change?
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 01:09 (Ref:3893583)   #1470
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*Holden's baggage
The very least they could do is carry some Holden/888 branding.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 02:05 (Ref:3893587)   #1471
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The geniune need appears to be Holden isnt winning. As ever it prompts a parity adjustment. Less so the other way around.
Aw c'mon mate, have you forgotten an almost identical set of circumstances with ZB - opposition brand teams complaining, changes made to the rules. In any case we don't know for sure that there will be any changes so it's somewhat moot at this stage anyway.
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So the homologation process has stayed the same for so long because??? Anyone with any knowledge has always questioned it's accuracy, yet no change?
Necessary updates to rules have always been part of the vehicle recognition process, with anything competitive that is fairly common across most if not all sports. Clearly the homologation process has been updated over time, based on various public comments made by those involved re what is analysed etc.
As always though, regardless of what category of motor sport, testing and evaluation provides information but racing can offer up different results that need to be addressed. Even in F1, with the VAST amount of testing, evaluation and process involved this phenomenon is often seen. Even now, after the evaluation, design and testing process, followed by pre-season testing and 1 race so far, there are varying opinions on exactly what impact the new front wing regulations will have on racing - after a a few races, we'll all have a better idea.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 03:04 (Ref:3893590)   #1472
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Aw c'mon mate, have you forgotten an almost identical set of circumstances with ZB - opposition brand teams complaining, changes made to the rules. In any case we don't know for sure that there will be any changes so it's somewhat moot at this stage anyway.
Necessary updates to rules have always been part of the vehicle recognition process, with anything competitive that is fairly common across most if not all sports. Clearly the homologation process has been updated over time, based on various public comments made by those involved re what is analysed etc.
No I havent forgotten. 888 homologated the Commodore with fibreglass/carbon fibre everything - including hatches, roof panels etc because, apparently, they couldnt get the genuine parts from Holden. Nissan and Ford were then allowed to play catch up.

The COG and aero are different kettles containing different fish. Clearly the Commodore had an aero advantage all last year. Apparently that was ok because Ford didnt do a good enough job. So Ford have now improved things (Clearly their CFD is better than Nick Wirth's, not that I have had any faith in him since the Simtek days) and suddenly we have parity issues. So what changed from last year to this?

As for the COG the bulk of the chassis are Falcon chassis anyway. So what has changed?

Answer - Holden are no longer winning.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 03:08 (Ref:3893591)   #1473
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The ZB had a key point of difference in being given an exemption to run composite upper body structure because ostensibly steel panels were not available, and the teams weren't told "go see a fabricator". Does the Mustang have a similar issue? On RPM, Mr Tander speculated it might be due to the Mustang's smaller coupe greenhouse/roof.

I can't imagine that determining how a CoG height would achieved, or enforcing it, would be easy.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 03:22 (Ref:3893593)   #1474
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The ZB had a key point of difference in being given an exemption to run composite upper body structure because ostensibly steel panels were not available, and the teams weren't told "go see a fabricator". Does the Mustang have a similar issue? On RPM, Mr Tander speculated it might be due to the Mustang's smaller coupe greenhouse/roof.

I can't imagine that determining how a CoG height would achieved, or enforcing it, would be easy.
They should use the Nissan as the baseline, it is the slower of the 3 body shapes... bring both the ZB and Mustang back to that model.

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Old 27 Mar 2019, 03:29 (Ref:3893594)   #1475
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As for the COG the bulk of the chassis are Falcon chassis anyway. So what has changed?
.
The chassis is exactly the same no matter if you are a Nissan, FG, Mustang or ZB as it's a controlled chassis. What is different are the things that getting added... You do the math’s, is 4 doors heavier than 2 doors?
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