Club F3 - Page 3

ian_w · 12 Feb 2006, 18:55 (Ref:1521149)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raltracer

Hmmm .. I was thinking about .. don't to clubf3 .. more cost effective single seater racing is catered for in mono and f4 that will give almost the same perfomance as club f3 cars .. well most of the club f3 grid in any event. Times in mono are just a few seconds off pole compared to pole at most circuits .. although the 220bhp engines will move them another 1 or 2 sec on in 2006... I guess.

ie 47's Brand for mono and 55/56's for bulk of the arpf3 grid.

raltracer

I think you are in dream land about the lap times.

At Donington last year, ARP pole was 1:07.8, Mono 2000 was 1:11.8 which would have been 10th out of 14 on the ARP grid! Race fastest laps were again about 4 seconds slower ( low 1:08s to low 1:12s )

Cleggie · 12 Feb 2006, 21:00 (Ref:1521283)

...its also a bit of a dream to suppose that Mono cars are anything like the standard of F3...sorry to be contentious....think I'll just reach for my crash hat!

JohnMiller · 12 Feb 2006, 22:59 (Ref:1521379)

I can't believe you haven't been lambasted for that yet Cleggie!

SpawnyWhippet · 12 Feb 2006, 23:12 (Ref:1521384)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleggie

...its also a bit of a dream to suppose that Mono cars are anything like the standard of F3...sorry to be contentious....think I'll just reach for my crash hat!

I think a certain Mr Lewis would beg to differ

Jon Gray · 13 Feb 2006, 09:00 (Ref:1521591)

In a way I agree with Cleggie, there is no comparison between Club F3 & Mono. They are completely different, if people want to do Club F3 or Mono it is up to them yes Club F3 is more expensive but there again they a proper F3 cars as they raced in there day were as Mono cars are modified single seaters from all sorts of formulas using all sorts and types of engine. It’s a bit like comparing chalk and cheese. I race in club F3 and I know a some people who race in Mono what surprises me is they never compare the two championships apart from saying Mono is cheaper.

Bob Pearson · 13 Feb 2006, 09:26 (Ref:1521603)

Jon. this is something that has always intrigued me as well. I run in BARC Renault, cars from our formula have gone to Mono to be run in a form they were never designed to be. The same applies to the F3 cars in Mono. I can only conclude that their loyalty to the club is the driving factor, whereas ours is the pleasure of driving the cars in their ultimate design spec.

Each to his own.

reynard55 · 13 Feb 2006, 13:01 (Ref:1521760)

The biggest thing that stops me doing F3 is the cost of the engines.
A Mono car can run competitively with an engine that can be built by a competent amateur and needs rebuilds every 3 years, if you dont do loads of testing probably 4!
When does a Mugen or a Spiess needs a rebuild? I do not know but I would suspect yearly.
Fix this problem and you will get lots more drivers.
Formula Renault do not look nice cars to me, personally I would not consider one.

Bob Pearson · 13 Feb 2006, 13:14 (Ref:1521768)

What stops someone re-building their own Mugen or Spiess, The basics are the same as any engine?
It's like I said. each to his own. The only thing I would sooner have than an FR is a modern F3

Jon Gray · 13 Feb 2006, 13:18 (Ref:1521770)

Reynard55

You have answered your own question, you can’t afford to do Club F3 because they do need to be rebuilt every year so did my formula ford engine for that matter, but for your information my engine is done by Xtec Engineering and only cost a little more than a Formula Ford rebuild. Having said that my mate has a Mugen and he rebuilds it himself.

Bob Pearson · 13 Feb 2006, 13:28 (Ref:1521777)

Ah, that's answered my question as well. So, can I presume that it is possible to purchase all parts for Mugen and Spiess engines

Jon Gray · 13 Feb 2006, 13:46 (Ref:1521788)

Bob

Yes you can and they are very good to deal with as well, the only consideration is some of the parts for older engines are obsolete but you can get equivalent parts i.e. pistons from other sources. All the parts for my Renualt come from Sodemo in France and my engine builder has no problems in getting them.

Bob Pearson · 13 Feb 2006, 13:48 (Ref:1521792)

That's also very interesting Jon, which Renault engine does the F3 use. and how much of it is special?

Jon Gray · 13 Feb 2006, 13:59 (Ref:1521798)

Bob

It is based on the Laguna but unfortunately that's were it ends. They are so heavily modified that apart from the block you would not know it was a Renault and they even modified it every year after it came out and there were modifications throughout the seasons when it ran in F3. When I spoke to Mugen, when I had one of there engines they told me that they would typically modify them all the time. Going back to my Renault there are three Cylinder head configurations that I know off but it’s not to difficult to keep track of.

Bob Pearson · 13 Feb 2006, 14:33 (Ref:1521812)

Hmmmmmmmm, that's a bit nerve wracking, especially when I am used to Renault engines that last for four years and cost about £400 to rebuild. I am still quite taken with the idea, the only other stumbling block is the BRSCC, I have never got on well with them when I raced at their events. Have they changed their ways and started treating drivers like customers, and what is the entry costs for Club F3?

Jon Gray · 13 Feb 2006, 14:44 (Ref:1521820)

Bob

The cost for registering for the Championship is £235.00 and race entries are about £250.00 but you do get 25 Min qualifying and race time for that. Regarding the BRSCC I have never had a problem with them but they have reorganised them self’s lately. When I spoke to the championship co-coordinator at the Autosport show he told me that the new championship was about value for money for the drivers, we will have to wait and see.

Bob Pearson · 13 Feb 2006, 14:55 (Ref:1521826)

That all sounds quite promising Jon.

JohnMiller · 13 Feb 2006, 15:12 (Ref:1521829)

£250 seems good value for 50 mins track time

Jon Gray · 13 Feb 2006, 15:28 (Ref:1521839)

I think its good value and in general you are treated well at the meetings as you are normally the feature race. I remember going to Snetterton when I done the Formula Ford Pre 90 Championship the paddock was full so we where put outside, to top that the qualifying was cut short and due to the organization our race was run over five minutes after that I vowed never again as it is a five hour drive for me.

reynard55 · 14 Feb 2006, 08:00 (Ref:1522336)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Gray

Reynard55

You have answered your own question, you can’t afford to do Club F3 because they do need to be rebuilt every year so did my formula ford engine for that matter, but for your information my engine is done by Xtec Engineering and only cost a little more than a Formula Ford rebuild. Having said that my mate has a Mugen and he rebuilds it himself.

Jon

I was not asking a question, merely trying to give you an idea why monoposto 2000 have such big grids compared to ARP.
I hope you have much more sucess as Club F3.

Originally Posted by Cleggie
...its also a bit of a dream to suppose that Mono cars are anything like the standard of F3...sorry to be contentious....think I'll just reach for my crash hat!

Cleggie

Having just spent some time working on one of your old ARP Reynard 863's I would advise being careful when criticising the general standards of preperation in Mono 2000. Your cars were OK but there are several Mono 2000 cars that are much nicer.

This time I do have a question for the club F3 drivers, you make so much of the love of running the F3 cars as designed, but you all have to run the wrong tyres. All the cars since 1990 have been designed to run on radials, but you have to run on cossplies, surely this detracts from the performance and capabilities of the cars?

Larry J-Croft · 14 Feb 2006, 08:22 (Ref:1522354)

There seem to be quite polarised positions regarding the two series (F3 versus Mono). Earlier in this thread I said I was looking at Club F3 because of television coverage which might have had the outside chance of attracting a real sponsor (sadly now defunct), which would mean that my wife might actually believe me when I said it didn't cost that much to race a single seater !! By my sums, Club F3 will cost about double for a season, for all the reasons stated elsewhere ie engines, tyres, entries etc. And just as importantly I don't give a stuff whether the car I am racing is as close to its original design spec as it can be. I like the challenge of getting the car to work against whatever the rules are and then racing the car next to me whatever he is in.

Jon Gray · 14 Feb 2006, 08:50 (Ref:1522372)

Reynard 55

I take your point on the grid size but it’s of no relevance Club F3 is for F3 cars split into three classes where as Mono is a multi formula championship there is no comparison to make. We are hoping to average 20 cars per race this season if that happens it will be good, one of the problems we suffered with last season was the dates for some rounds were to close together and when you have a problem some times it effects the next round. After all like many other club series we all have full time jobs as well.

Larry J-Croft

It always surprises me to see later Dallara’s in Mono because from 96 onwards they were drastically changed because of regulations from the FIA i.e. Stepped floors reduced down force to name but a few. The ideal F3 in my opinion would be a Dallara 394 or any Chassis with a flat floor they are generally softer as well which would also help. I don’t thing Club F3 is double the cost but would agree it is more expensive, at the end of the day like all racing you can spend as much as you want, how much of that improves performance is always debatable.

Cleggie · 14 Feb 2006, 13:20 (Ref:1522571)

Cleggie

Having just spent some time working on one of your old ARP Reynard 863's I would advise being careful when criticising the general standards of preperation in Mono 2000. Your cars were OK but there are several Mono 2000 cars that are much nicer.

This time I do have a question for the club F3 drivers, you make so much of the love of running the F3 cars as designed, but you all have to run the wrong tyres. All the cars since 1990 have been designed to run on radials, but you have to run on cossplies, surely this detracts from the performance and capabilities of the cars?[/QUOTE]

Well of course we can all take a lesson from you on preparation, NOT and perhaps your comment that a car won't run on a particular type of tyre highlights your car preparation shortcomings. Try walking around the paddock with your eyes open next time you want to compare the relative standards of F3 and Mono, the only 863 I saw in Mono looked like it had been painted with a yard brush!

JohnMiller · 14 Feb 2006, 13:23 (Ref:1522573)

Slow down. Most ARPs I saw were better prepared and run than most Monos - though there still plenty of Monos that looked very good. Mono has a far wider mix of car, both actual car and car age.

Plenty of Mono drivers don't give a toss about appearance and that's up to them.

The yardbrush quote was funny though.

andoiwebb · 14 Feb 2006, 13:37 (Ref:1522585)

there's nothing wrong with a yard brush, it's great for applying hammerite to fvl rockers.............. isn't it larry?!!!!!

Larry J-Croft · 14 Feb 2006, 13:54 (Ref:1522599)

Too darn right Andy - nothing wrong with a good stiff brush. I seem to remember the last time I saw you, you were wielding one on a rather dirty FR??!!

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