Club F3 2007

[driftwood]

yes as the fatties need to get some chance of parity!!
in FFord the mimimum weight is for car only and not fair against those who drink beer eat crsips and do no exercise

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by driftwood

However the radial tyre plays into the hands of the 02-04 car owners no one else

Look back at the times from previous years BF3. The 97 to current cars very much on a par for pace, certainly at this level.

The tyres are a total red herring. Like any other series if you want to compete to win, it's a new set per race meeting which you then test on next time. If you prefer you can stretch two sets over one year, but it will be sloer and if you are a quick driver you will kill them.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by driftwood

those who drink beer eat crsips and do no exercise

Dont talk about Mr Miller like that!!!

[driftwood]

Miller is too mean to buy beer he is the sort to troll the bars collecting the dregs in the bottom of the glasses

yes John if u want to run at the front u do need new tyres per meeting as tyres loose .5-1 second over the days running
Tyres are made to be a consumable
in the old days before the Falklands war u could run 2 sets of tyres all year but the construction as altered from rubber to more chemicals which makes the tyres more "tempremental" and go off with the heat cycles

comparing times from UK F3 from 97-04 is likely to show 1-2 second increase in lap times
but consider these teams are top flight with engineers lap tops data loggers young gun top drivers looking for 1 tenth of a second gain from 1 year to the next
they have top spec engines dampers chassis NEW rubber every outing !!

Club F3 realy should be 1 set tyres to coevr 2 meetings including qualifying that is what real club racing is about but the tyre provided last year was not suitable to run over the days meeting without a kick back and was often better the week after it had been run from new

This was the excuse being used to change to radials but the 04 spec tyre ran well and is actucally the tyre used in TF3 in the HSCC

[diz]

Originally Posted by driftwood

A club racer can do 1 of 2 things
send wheels via a courier .....................

Get in there Cleggie and do it at TopSpeed

[FFmygale]

Same thread....different question!

Are the tyres really going to make that much difference? Is it really going to mean that a pre-04 car is going to handle differently to a post 04 car????? I may be relying on a basic engineering knowledge and a bit of common sense but surely this can't be right? surely it depends on suspension set up? much more than aerodynamics or anything?

And as for all this comment on weight - I admit I may have a slight bias but I don't understand how, to put it politely, 'heavier' people are determined to change the rules to enable them to be competitive in the sport they love - I've always wanted to play basketball but despite being only 5 foot 8 have never wanted to get them to lower the nets so that I can play well!!!

[SALEEN S7R]

Changing the subject slightly, now that we are in 2007 does this mean that 2005 spec cars are now eligable for Club F3 as opposed to 2004 spec machinery?

[JohnMiller]

2005 cars are current British Class A cars! Hopefully won't be in until finished in BF3 in 2011, but I wouldn't count on it.

[SALEEN S7R]

Ah I see, I thought that now we are in 2007 that 2006 spec cars will be National class F3 level and with that in mind 2005 spec cars would be eligable for Club F3. My mistake.

[JohnMiller]

National Class British F3 is 2002-4 car which, for some reason was let into Club F3 two years before BF3 finishes with it.

[SALEEN S7R]

Ah ok, thanks. To be honest I dont really know that much about Formula 3 in general. I was always under the mistaken impression that the Championship class was for 2007 spec cars and National was for 1 year old machinery and Club F3's newest machines were always 1 or more years older than that of the National stuff in British F3.

[Ian Sowman]

In simple terms, a 'new' car (read: Dallara) only comes out every three years.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

In simple terms, a 'new' car (read: Dallara) only comes out every three years.

Under FIA regs, a 'new' car (read: any chassis) only comes out every three years.

[driftwood]

To go back over posts
1 weight - If u have car and driver weight this way yuou can have parity as i said before Fford is car only so with low power output a heavy driver is penalised by 2-10 hp
its the same in Karting kart and driver- 1 reason why many men give up karting and go to gearbox karts or cars as they just cannot compete against 65-75kg drivers when they are 85-100kg

2 tyres- are everything on a modern race car suspension set up is now in the chassis to the degree u cannot alter the suspension too much ie positive camber is hard to get on the 02-04 car and that is why back door twitching went on by car owners to get the tyres from X plies to radial

3 chassis
For years ARP F3 had a definate cut off on chassis at 1993 ( but excluding dallara 393/4 car) as away of keeping costs down and having stability
Then 1 driver pushed for 393 dallara to run in 1997/8 ish and was allowed to run with ballast
then in 2000 the 98 car was allowed in suddenly mid 2000 the 99-01 car was allowed in and the rest is history or down hill from there on regarding spiralling costs

Its ludicrous to allow into a club formula cars that are less then 5 years old let alone 2/3
Cars are expensive engines are all leased so difficult to buy a car with engine until the tuner has old stock motors or has ceased to run that model and then sells them off

[FFmygale]

Ok, back on tyres. Are you saying that the car to have, now the series will be on radials, will be the 02-04 model? Will the previous age group of chassis (99-01) struggle to be competitive on radials then?

[JohnMiller]

Definitely not. A good driver in a well-prepped F393 could win.

The F302-4 could have been easily modded to suit the crossplys better if necessary anyway.

[driftwood]

Not true John on 02 car being kitted out to run x plies
the car would need $$ spent on severe testing and to get the best set up may have needed new wishbones made to get the rose joints to be fitted with safety to allow more movement due to the negative camber now in the chassis rather that the uprights/ camber plates

These days chassi sdesign is so sevre ther is little room for movement except a few degrees on radilas betwen say Avon Kumhos Bridgestones to set the cars up look in dallara parts book even the pushrods are marked fopr teh different tyre brands due to the characteristics of each tyre

There is no bump steer in modern cars older cars u had to dial it out
Even castor can bu built into the upright by the factory so u dont have to fidle around

All F3 cars raced on Radials from 93 and many ran from 1990 on radials
In theory a 93 car or 96 car is capable of doing the business in ClubF3 but they will nee dto be working with an engineer have the best engine spec and a driver with immense skill and daring to beat a later car

Its natural for a new model to be faster that the previous car in its aero package and the chassis and suspension dynamics a company like dallara do endless hours testing designing and evaluating to make the next model better

[JohnMiller]

I can't see it. If you have got a £30k to £40k car, getting a couple of longer wishbones made should not be breaking the bank.

I'm sure there will be quick drivers out this year in 97/98s, 99/00/01, and 02/03/04s and I'm sure there will nothing between them.

[driftwood]

I can't see it. If you have got a £30k to £40k car, getting a couple of longer wishbones made should not be breaking the bank.yes u can spend £1-2k to make modify parts to fit the car out for x plies but in reality would you? better to buy the 98 or 01 car that is easier to work with remember its CLUB racing not Pro racing with £2-300k budgets being paid

I'm sure there will be quick drivers out this year in 97/98s, 99/00/01, and 02/03/04s and I'm sure there will nothing between them.If that was the case why did u buy 02 car- No smoke without fire

[JohnMiller]

Please don't start that fancy coloured stuff here too driftwood!

Hey, I agree with you personally and think Club F3 should be 1 generation behind BF3 but I don't make the rules.

So, I've got a newer car but I've also got older cars and could well run another F398 this year too.

[FFmygale]

What are the main differences between the 99/01 cars to the 02/04 cars then? Where is one beneficial over the other?

Don't 04 cars have a sequential box?

[JohnMiller]

02 chassis uses FTR sequential, 6 speed box. Weighs 12 kg more.

99 chassis uses 5-speed H pattern, weighs less, easier to set up

97 chassis has less drag so quicker in a straight line, but inevitably later cars develop a little more downforce

93 chassis was the last of the flat bottoms

Overall, in Club F3 terms, little to choose in terms of outright pace in my opinion. Clearly Drifty disagrees but has he tested the various cars on the various tyres, like some have?

97 is a little tighter for larger builds, not an issue to you

93 car is suited to 4 st, 3ft tall only.

[FFmygale]

Thanks John, very helpful.

What about handling characteristics - (tendency to over or understeer etc) / straight line speed (aero efficiency I guess) etc, between 99 and 02 cars?

I presume that the 02 type cars (ignoring the weight difference) are the quicker cars? but with the weight difference are roughly at parity to the 99 car?

[driftwood]

02 chassis uses FTR sequential, 6 speed box. Weighs 12 kg more.This is why Class B in 2002 had to run 10-12kg more ballast to s top the 99-01 car beating the newer car as seen by Adam Carroll

99 chassis uses 5-speed H pattern, weighs less, easier to set up99-01 car is essentially the same car but with 00 LWB fr wishbones and lower engine cover due to exhaust being moved and front floor rad intake being larger orifice rear wing was moved to a lower pick up from 99-00 front and rear wings are wider than 98 car

97 chassis has less drag so quicker in a straight line, but inevitably later cars develop a little more downforce97 car was narrow track hence good staright line speed but 98 update was WT and different front wing longer nose box different sid epods and tyre ramps fitted

u didnt mention the 95/6 car narrower tub than 97/8 car good straight line speed 1st step floor car

93 chassis was the last of the flat bottoms

Overall, in Club F3 terms, little to choose in terms of outright pace in my opinion. Clearly Drifty disagrees but has he tested the various cars on the various tyres, like some have?each car has a benefit or disadvantage in 95 the car was A class car and had better cornering speed but they struggled to pass the 93/4 car on the straights- 98 car in WT had better mechanical grip over 96 & 97 cars we are talking a few tenths of a second here but that is what the quick guys are seeking

97 is a little tighter for larger builds, not an issue to you 95/6 chassis is narrower than the 97/8 car
most people wil be snug in a 95/6 car but will need to make a set in 97/8 car
the 99-01 car with the head support made it easier for stockier & taller guys to drive

93 car is suited to 4 st, 3ft tall only.since when did we let7- 9 year olds race in club f3 rules clearly state that u must hold national A licence!

[JohnMiller]

FFmygale
I'll dig your number out.