[Multi 21] Red Bull-Honda

[Dixon9]

Is anyone surprised Red Bull are moaning? They're a long established team of ***** and wannabe edge lords.

[BSchneiderFan]

Ricciardo still hasn’t signed a new deal and it may not happen till Spa. Financial details holding it up, do we reckon? Or is he sniffing elsewhere?

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Dixon9

Is anyone surprised Red Bull are moaning? They're a long established team of ***** and wannabe edge lords.

I had to look up “edgelord”.

[ASCII Man]

He ain't wrong, to be honest.

[Akrapovic]

I did laugh as edge lord as I haven't seen it used in this sort of context before, but yeah it's kinda right.

[gert]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

At Hockenheim Red Bull wanted to change Ricciardo's ICE, MGU-H and turbo since he was taking grid penalties anyway. Renault refused. Try figure that out.

Renault said they (Red Bull) had enough (old) parts to get through to the moment their new spec (C-spec In think?) would be ready.

If Renault would have effectively given Ricciarod/Red Bull their B-spec, and as a result he couldn't upgrade to the C-spec once that was available without (again) taking new penalties, Red Bull would have moaned.
If Renault tries to put off taking (unnecessary) upgrades so the C-spec could be put in as soon as possible, Red Bull moans.

Whatever Renault does, Red Bull will always find a reason to moan.

--

Of course, if Red Bull and Renault were on speaking terms, they could just have agreed upgrading everything ot postponing some upgrades was the best way forward.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by gert

Of course, if Red Bull and Renault were on speaking terms, they could just have agreed upgrading everything ot postponing some upgrades was the best way forward.

Really going over the coals of a finished relationship will always be a waste of time for both the parties involved and those on the sidelines.


Meanwhile, on a more positive note, RBR's test mules STR did 499 (2200km) at Hungaroring testing for themselves, Honda and Pirelli.


No PU failiures, or from what I can gather even niggles. They go to the season break with a heap of data to analyze for the rest of the season and to develop next seasons RBR PU. At this stage the reliability problems seem to have been fixed.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by gert

Renault said they (Red Bull) had enough (old) parts to get through to the moment their new spec (C-spec In think?) would be ready.

If Renault would have effectively given Ricciarod/Red Bull their B-spec, and as a result he couldn't upgrade to the C-spec once that was available without (again) taking new penalties, Red Bull would have moaned.
If Renault tries to put off taking (unnecessary) upgrades so the C-spec could be put in as soon as possible, Red Bull moans.

Whatever Renault does, Red Bull will always find a reason to moan.

--

Of course, if Red Bull and Renault were on speaking terms, they could just have agreed upgrading everything ot postponing some upgrades was the best way forward.

Ricciardo will take a penalty anyway with C-spec. It wouldn't have made any difference in that regard.

[S griffin]

The fact is that is now the fourth race in a row a RBR has broken down. So there must be something wrong there

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

At this stage the reliability problems seem to have been fixed.

Is it 2016 again?

[BSchneiderFan]

I come back to the fact that Renault are supplying a sub-standard product, and seem unwilling to take any responsibility for that, as if engine failures were just “one of those things”, acts of God. You don’t need to be brimful of empathy to see why Red Bull might be hacked off, as there is evidence to suggest that they’re building one of the best chassis in Formula 1.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I come back to the fact that Renault are supplying a sub-standard product, and seem unwilling to take any responsibility for that, as if engine failures were just “one of those things”, acts of God. You don’t need to be brimful of empathy to see why Red Bull might be hacked off, as there is evidence to suggest that they’re building one of the best chassis in Formula 1.

for me thats the right way to look at this.

maybe my memory is lacking on this (bias towards one side will do that), but has their been a single RB race victory (at least in the current engine era) where credit for the win came down to Renault power?

lots of Merc race wins where credit is given to the engine vs credit going to the driver, their chassis, their racecraft.

no doubt an average engine is better than no engine (or even a Honda engine) so RB has benefited from the partnership...but it could have been so much more had Renault been able to provide a better product.

so yeah i agree, from this point of view the frustration on RB's part is very valid imo.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

maybe my memory is lacking on this (bias towards one side will do that), but has their been a single RB race victory (at least in the current engine era) where credit for the win came down to Renault power?

Probably not - a look at their own 'history' on their website sees how they view things.

To summarise/paraphrase:

'New aero regulations in 2009 gave us a level playing field, and we built a series of great cars'
'2010 - our drivers were the best in the field'
'2011 - lack of experience with KERS meant we didn't too as good as hoped, but our team and car development was brilliant'
'2014 - we were saddled with a sizeable horsepower deficit, but the car was good enough to give Ricciardo wins'
'2015 - still plagued by horsepower defecit'

In all of the praise given, there is not a single mention of gratitude to their engine supplier for playing a part in success. But they are keen to point out that it is all Renault's fault that they have not had recent titles.

[chillibowl]

well just because Rb are keen to point it out doesnt mean its not true.

but asking objectively, has Renault's supply been praise worthy?

as much as F1 is entertainment driven...it is also a technologically driven sport.

as such, criticizing a technology supplier for a lack of performance should be considered a very normal thing, particularly, when there is ample evidence that they have under performed with their supply.

for sure Horner and co do talk about it a lot and after all these years i suppose it does sound more like complaining and moaning but, as mentioned earlier, it doesn't mean they are wrong!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

well just because Rb are keen to point it out doesnt mean its not true.

but asking objectively, has Renault's supply been praise worthy?

as much as F1 is entertainment driven...it is also a technologically driven sport.

as such, criticizing a technology supplier for a lack of performance should be considered a very normal thing, particularly, when there is ample evidence that they have under performed with their supply.

for sure Horner and co do talk about it a lot and after all these years i suppose it does sound more like complaining and moaning but, as mentioned earlier, it doesn't mean they are wrong!

I think the key part of RB's description of events, is that they introduce the lack of HP as a reason for a decline in results. So it could be interpreted as meaning that the HP was at least on par with others previously, and the chassis made the difference.

Was the PU worthy of praise prior to 2010? Maybe - it definitely seems to have been equal to the other PUs at the time, so if the Ferrari, Merecedes or even Cosworth received any praise then Renault should too.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think the key part of RB's description of events, is that they introduce the lack of HP as a reason for a decline in results. So it could be interpreted as meaning that the HP was at least on par with others previously, and the chassis made the difference.

Was the PU worthy of praise prior to 2010? Maybe - it definitely seems to have been equal to the other PUs at the time, so if the Ferrari, Merecedes or even Cosworth received any praise then Renault should too.

with regards to prior to seasons 2014, thats a very fair point.

if memory serves, i agree. Renault were there or there abouts the other engines and while we can disagree as to the level of praise they deserved they certainly weren't holding the team back either.

the post 2014/hybrid engine era however is another story.

[S griffin]

Exactly, in fact Renault did a really good job in 2011 for the team not to have a engine blow up in the race all season

[Aysedasi]

But that's 7 years ago. Just history.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But that's 7 years ago. Just history.

Yes, quite. If history translated into success, McLaren and Williams would be very happy.

[F1Guy]

It is now official as of the Japanese GP. Red Bull will be Honda powered from next year on a "multi-year" contract. Crazy that it is took so long after the announcement (June 19 2018) to make it official.

You'd think that an PU supply contract would have been signed before the announcement was made.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

It is now official as of the Japanese GP. Red Bull will be Honda powered from next year on a "multi-year" contract. Crazy that it is took so long after the announcement (June 19 2018) to make it official.

You'd think that an PU supply contract would have been signed before the announcement was made.

Any verification?

[wnut]

Max's view:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...e-ame-old-song

" Asked about Renault preparing a complete new engine next year, Verstappen said: "They had one last year as well I think.
"[Catching Mercedes and Ferrari] was the idea four years ago as well. And three years ago as well. And two years ago as well.
"It's always the same old song. I don't care. I'm totally not thinking about that.
"I'm looking forward to the challenge we have with Honda now."


Clearly, sick and tired of Renault and glad to be shot of them!

[E.B]

Interesting that in response to Max and Horner bleating about the poor reliability of the Renault engines that Rob Bell has responded by reminding Red Bull that perhaps the fault lies in their (RBR) size zero installation... he also pointed out that the engines seem quite reliable in races for the factory team (Renault have had but one engine related race failure / DNF this year, that of Hulkenberg in Austria.

Maybe he has a point. Plus of course Rec Bull refuse to use the Renault recommended fuel and lubricants the engine was built to run on.

[S griffin]

I think it will be interesting to see how well the works Reanult team do with one less team to supply and Ricciardo in the seat in 2019

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it will be interesting to see how well the works Reanult team do with one less team to supply and Ricciardo in the seat in 2019

WDC and WCC material hopefully!
And Mr Hulkenberg might even stand on a podium in F1