Friction Free

[maddogf3]

Been speaking to a team last week, who run in F3 schoolarship class
.Thought you might be intrested to know a few things
They all seam to be trying to reduce friction to an absolute minimum the most notable
Remove seals from wheelbearings and shim to prevent binding. no grease only light oil to lubricate
Caliper piston seals changed after 2 racers ,they then start to make pads bind slightly ( I have never seen wheels on a car spin so free and for so long .it was as if no pads were fitted) Data logging traces have proved its worth
I have always said that the disc, knocks the pads out on the bend you just braked for with all the flexing it does .
After Ratio change in hewland box ,gears lubed with an oil can only no additional oil added ( they use some purple Stuff thats fully synthetic and expensive ) cant remember what make it is ,does anyone know ??
Engine oil changed for the start of season only, Engine Hired of Mugen Honda for £30k+ and given back -- They dont touch it !
Anyone know any more tricks that they do and we dont ( I am assuming not many of us do the above )
I am sure Ian_W "MUST HAVE A LOT HE CAN TELL US" ( unless he will have to kill us afterwards) come on Ian "Spill the Beans " where are we going wrong?????
Regards Martin

[Al Weyman]

I would say the oil is ATF as used in Cosworth boxes (from memory please correct me if wrong). As for the brake calipers/pads, well mine on my Chevy were well and truely sticking and I have just changed them so maybe I can be expected to pick up a few tenths or so :-)

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

I have never seen wheels on a car spin so free and for so long .it was as if no pads were fitted

Are we talking about wheels and bearings at full racing temperature? The drag in my bearings is very temperature dependent because of the type of grease I use. Just because you need a long bar to turn them cold doesn't mean there's a lot of friction on track

As for getting better top speed, it's well worth a read up on what the Bugatti engineers had to do to get the Vyron up to Vmax. Taking in the rear spoiler is only the visible bit. Did you know they have to fit special low friction tyres for example?

[graham bahr]

most of these tricks are due to the need to gain every little tiny advanage within a set of tightly controlled rules which everyone is already making full use of, and as such long term reliability and cost come second.

these tweeks are all along similar lines to running an engine on the absolute min oil level to save a bit of drag, a dubious practise unless you can afford to risk your engine every time out for a very small gain.

not many, if any of us clubmen are in the position to need to be looking for such tiny little gains as we all have other bigger and more effective ones open to us should we wish to explore them.

although its interesting non the less

[maddogf3]

Lets see what Ian_W says if he reads this thread
.I am supprised at your comments !
This" is" what they do! I thought it was interesting to learn what teams are doing to squeeze a litre out of a pint pot
I know what happens when you warm grease up and it thins out but they are using thin oil in the bearing - bugger the wear . Thought some of you might have been able to tells us and me some other tricks. Not to bang on about what you do and think ,after all they are winning and right at the cutting edge of design and technolgy.I to poo pooed the brake seal idea but they prooved it on lap times and data logging .
Al, they just change the seals in the calipers nothing else ,the idea is to make them stick on the piston and pull it back rather than letting it self adjust as we all know they do ,thiers dont they just spin free
Graham, they did say they run minimum oil level as well but I didn't think that was worth mentioning as it appears to be common place
No one mentioned lack of gearbox oil! to me it shows just how good modern lubricants are I was shocked
These gains are for nothing it made me think ! particularly as we have run in ff where mods are strictly limited and works teams are usualy a second quicker on lap times it cant all be down to the driver or dont any of you agree

[Al Weyman]

Blimey chill Maddog its a forum and we discuss things on a forum thats the idea, we do bang on about what we do and think thats the whole idea is'nt it? If not why are we bothering, I don't think anyone has been out of order at all, sorry.

[graham bahr]

with you on that one Al

[maddogf3]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Blimey chill Maddog its a forum and we discuss things on a forum thats the idea, we do bang on about what we do and think thats the whole idea is'nt it? If not why are we bothering, I don't think anyone has been out of order at all, sorry.

Didn' meant to tell you or give the impression that you were out of order I just thought it was dead interesting what they do to squeeze avery bit out of a race car not let every one know how tight our wheels get at the end of a race perhaps thats why we dont win very often I used to shake the car at the end of a race to free calipers off ( makes it easier to push ) but i am sure you dont want to hear that -- see what I'm getting at this is Racing Technolgy or am I wrong

[Al Weyman]

OK the old forum problem, easy to get the wrong end of the stick, I thought the topic quite interesting as it goes so back to that, what about the tyres do they do any thing on those to reduce rolling friction?

[retro_msport]

Interesting about the calipers... I guess they have no pad knock off through flexing.. as for the no oil gearbox, I used to run a type9 with ATF only to try to loose some frictional losses, and they normally broke before any wear was apparent, so with a better box and modern lubes that stick to parts it seems it works.
As for what other tricks people do... isnt that hard to get out of people.

[maddogf3]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

OK the old forum problem, easy to get the wrong end of the stick, I thought the topic quite interesting as it goes so back to that, what about the tyres do they do any thing on those to reduce rolling friction?

Control tyres --Avon radials
didn't mention anything but did offer us a set of slicks said put tyre softener liquid on and use them The rally boys do !!!!!
Did say ( the engineer) that they did spray kart tyres with wd40 and lifted them up and spun them made them sticky ( dont know if that legal or not)
They were more interested on traction corner speed and aero dynamics not top speed .as you would have guessed in f3 not much real power . but plenty of cornering power
Dallara have quoted 2400 lbs of down thrust from rear wing makes you think . By the way we bought last years chassis off them minus engine

[maddogf3]

Originally Posted by retro_msport

Interesting about the calipers... I guess they have no pad knock off through flexing.. as for the no oil gearbox, I used to run a type9 with ATF only to try to loose some frictional losses, and they normally broke before any wear was apparent, so with a better box and modern lubes that stick to parts it seems it works.
As for what other tricks people do... isnt that hard to get out of people.

They use the same gears as in mk 9 but f3 dont have a mass of power going through the slicks drive, shafts break but not many gear boxes we allways used atf until we got free synthetic gerabox oil so used that instead its downto money at the end of the day

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

I used to shake the car at the end of a race to free calipers off ( makes it easier to push )

Yeh, well maybe you should get a set of brakes like my mate. They have internal springs in the caliper pistons that pull them back off the disc as soon as the brake fluid pressure is released... its a 1966 E-type

Oh, and the pads are positively locked onto the pistons to make sure that they come back too

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

Control tyres --Avon radials
didn't mention anything but did offer us a set of slicks said put tyre softener liquid on and use them The rally boys do !!!!!
Did say ( the engineer) that they did spray kart tyres with wd40 and lifted them up and spun them made them sticky ( dont know if that legal or not)

slightly off topic but in 2006 blue book section E it specifically prohibits the use of tyre softener.

i by accedent one day descovered that getting petrol on my soft compound slicks made them really soft and sticky

[retro_msport]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

They use the same gears as in mk 9 but f3 dont have a mass of power going through the slicks drive, shafts break but not many gear boxes we allways used atf until we got free synthetic gerabox oil so used that instead its downto money at the end of the day

Type 9 as in the Ford Sierra 5speed box... slung into an old escort.. nothing as flash as a transaxle

[maddogf3]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Yeh, well maybe you should get a set of brakes like my mate. They have internal springs in the caliper pistons that pull them back off the disc as soon as the brake fluid pressure is released... its a 1966 E-type

Oh, and the pads are positively locked onto the pistons to make sure that they come back too

I wonder why they scrapped that idea then .
Seemed to remember all e-type brakes were crap or was it that they didn't handle and had to have exceptional brakes to pull you out of the s..t
wern't rear disc pads and hand brake pads diabolical or is my alltzimers getting to me
We seem to be getting off subject
How do we make upto date race cars faster and the tricks used

[graham bahr]

its not commonly realised, but it should be the caliper seal itself that pulls the piston away from the pad and therefore the pad off the disc, it does this as the seal deforms slightly when the piston moves out the tiny fraction that takes to push the pad on the disc, as soon as the brakes are realised the seal returns to its normal square shape

[retro_msport]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

slightly off topic but in 2006 blue book section E it specifically prohibits the use of tyre softener.

i by accedent one day descovered that getting petrol on my soft compound slicks made them really soft and sticky

you just happened to spill it all the way round and on all 4 tyres did you?

Big spill that Graham, you should take more care

[graham bahr]

nope, i did think about it though, then remembered the cost of the slicks and decided against it just in case

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

How do we make upto date race cars faster and the tricks used

short answer?

dunno! trouble is with F3 your talking expensive quite high tech single seater, and your talking to a bunch of guys that love and race, 60's 70's and early 80's saloon and sports cars

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by maddogf3

I wonder why they scrapped that idea then.

For the same reason Leonardo scrapped his ideas for a helicopter. The materials and manufacturing techniques of the time weren't good enough to make it work. Doesn't mean it can't be done though.

Originally Posted by maddogf3

How do we make upto date race cars faster and the tricks used

I'm slightly confused as to whether you want to hold a general discussion on this subject or if you want specific advice for a particular series. Your original post seemed to be directed at a specific series and a specific person Ian_W. If you want his advice why don't you just ask him directly? If you are wanting to introduce this subject hoping he will read it... why?

A number of contributors have tried to make general comments, but you appear to resent these, and you seem to know more about it than anyone else currently on the forum anyway.

I completely agree that, of anywhere on the site, this is the forum that should address this sort of question. It would be nice to think that there are experts who would feel they could contribute their knowledge and experience for the benefit of the rest of us. Unfortunately, I think that taking a combatorial style to getting that information is not only going to fail, but is going to put genuine experts off from contributing.

[graham bahr]

i, and i would say most on this forum see it as a place to discuss, technology full stop, rather than purely what the pros are doing and what the latest new thing is.

you will find lots of us happy to talk about most things, but you highly unlikely to find any real pro's here giving away real secrets, mostly just a bunch of normal guys who love talking cars and motorsport stuff, so please dont take it all so seriously

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

its not commonly realised, but it should be the caliper seal itself that pulls the piston away from the pad and therefore the pad off the disc, it does this as the seal deforms slightly when the piston moves out the tiny fraction that takes to push the pad on the disc, as soon as the brakes are realised the seal returns to its normal square shape

Beat me to it! The difference with the old Dunlop calipers used on 1960s Jaguars, etc., is that they gave a positive pad pull-back whereas modern calipers just release the pressure from the pads. Very little difference in real life, though, so the extra complication wasn't worth it - & the pads were a swine to make!

[Tim Draffan]

Any idea what make of loil they use on the wheel bearings and how often they re-lube them, how long do the bearings last?

[jonners]

not intending to tread on anyone's toes so forgive me if I do but i wonder whether the friction thing is a bit of a red herring??

am sure the race engineers know better than me but i read an article years ago by David Vizard who advised that when installing a crank the bearing shells should be trial fitted over and over again until the crank spins as freely as possible (a straight crank is a given, of course)

so that's what we did on our twin cam and sure enough only oil drag on the shells seemed to slow the crank from spinning

but then we thought perhaps this might only help when you start the engine - once it's rotating will it really make a difference??

our conclusion was that it's a good policy to follow but of dubious real benefit

wonder if it's the same with the wheel bearings to be honest...

not trying to pooh pooh anyone's ideas or suggestions but interested in peoples' views

perhaps i'll get my coat anyway...