Should Qualifying mean more?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Imola 2005 was a quality race.

With DRS it would have been all kinds of arse.

Indeed. Alonso holding up Schumacher for lap after lap. However, fast forward to Abu Dhabi 2010, and it seems that similar tactics don't go down too well with the two time WDC.

Unfortunately, the number of races where it may have livened things up a bit that season (you could never say that 2005 was a classic season, by any means), far outweighs the one occasion that most folk remember as being "quality".

It suffered with what most seasons in F1 tend to suffer with - too much down force.

With DRS, we may have seen what most people seem to want to see in F1 - the fastest car/driver combination winning the race. Even Petrov can drive a competent race defensively. Just ask Alonso.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Moveable bodywork? What moveable bodywork?

And there is that word again - 'spirit' of the regulations. That word has no right to be used with regard to regulations. You either confirm to the regs or you don't. There is no spirit involved. Using it implies some sort of personal assessment of this ethereal 'spirit', and everyone is different.

Regulations, just as the law, have a spirit, a meaning, a purpose and a historical background. With codifying the regulations the legislator not only codifies a number of words, but also (an) underlying meaning, purpose, values and principles. Although it might be difficult for non-lawyers, particularly for non-continental Europeans, but a textual interpretation rarely provides a proper understanding of the regulations.

[browney]

It isn't about making qualifying worth more, it is that there shouldn't be as big a penalty for trying to get on pole.

The rules this year have made it so qualifying is more about conserving tyres than setting the fastest lap time.

Let the teams that get to Q3, have an extra set, so they can do a second fast run at the end. We get our tense qualifying back and the races stay interesting.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by JamesH

As someone else said elsewhere, qualifying is just a mechanism for deciding how to start the race, because you cannot start all the cars at the same point. In other sports everyone starts at the same point/time (e.g. motorcross, sailing, athletics etc). That's not possible on a race track (without some alterations to the circuit....)

So, really its just a cheap way of getting some sort of order at the start of the race. After all, the RACE is the important bit, or should be, and this season, it is. Previous seasons qualifying was much TOO important, to the extend that you could almost forget the race the next day (esp. Spain, Monaco etc). This years, the race is the most important bit, although qualifying still pays a major part. And that is better.

Nail on head.

Qualifying did become too important. It basically stuck one foot in the door of the race the next day. You'd 50% won it already

Ok, it's not as important now, but I just think they need to allocate some more tyres just for qualy tbh. That way we see the cars out on track for longer.

I like the racing because there's actually racing this year.

Selby

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Imola 2005 and 2006 were quality races.

With DRS they would have been all kinds of arse.

We haven't just lost the art of overtaking but defence too. And qualifying!

Well, I don't think Vettel defended badly towards Hamilton at Spain. Sometimes he had an disadvantage of up to 25 km/h when they approached the braking zone on start/finish straight.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Imola 2005 and 2006 were quality races.

With DRS they would have been all kinds of arse.

We haven't just lost the art of overtaking but defence too. And qualifying!

So, are you saying that there haven't been any quality races since 2006?

I'd say this yeas that most of the races have been more exciting to watch than almost all the previous 5 years. We had more good overtakes this year than in the previous 5 years (Button and Shumacher's recent ones come to mind). We've also had some cracking defensive moves.

All those happened in races though, not qualifying. Sorry. But is is called a 'race' weekend for a reason.

If qualifying is so important to people, perhaps you should just watch sprints instead. That is purely car against the clock, no need for this awkward racing bit we have on Sundays. Just pure qualifying. The fastest driver in the fastest car, without any of those naughty other people getting in the way. Ah, the excitement.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by JamesH

So, are you saying that there haven't been any quality races since 2006?

No.

I'd say this yeas that most of the races have been more exciting to watch than almost all the previous 5 years. We had more good overtakes this year than in the previous 5 years (Button and Shumacher's recent ones come to mind). We've also had some cracking defensive moves.

Yes, but you cannot deny that ordinarily a driver less than a second ahead of someone is now simply a sitting duck. That is wrong.

All those happened in races though, not qualifying. Sorry. But is is called a 'race' weekend for a reason.

Define a race for me. Clue: overtaking doesn't come into it, as nice as it is.

If qualifying is so important to people, perhaps you should just watch sprints instead. That is purely car against the clock, no need for this awkward racing bit we have on Sundays. Just pure qualifying. The fastest driver in the fastest car, without any of those naughty other people getting in the way. Ah, the excitement.

Jesus wept.

All I know is I wouldn't pay to go to a GP now. No qualifying battle, utterly confusing races (trackside it must be impossible to follow). The whole spectacle is cheapened and overtaking moves committed via DRS are false.

But hey, the TV show is saved!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by beau1

Just hand out points for the top 5 in qualifying. That will make the top 10 get out there. It will work with this ridiculous points system we already have.

Points for qualifying would definitely put some edge on the spectacle... and you may even see people further down the grid design/build cars that were qualifying specials.

[Knowlesy]

That'll cut costs!

[beau1]

It wouldn't affect costs Mr. Knowlesy, they would be running the same cars on Sunday.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

But hey, the TV show is saved!

Which saves everything. Although getting in to watch an F1 race for a tenner does have its appeal. Not quite sure what I would be watching though? HRT on pole?

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by beau1

It wouldn't affect costs Mr. Knowlesy, they would be running the same cars on Sunday.

I dare say a qualifying spec car would struggle to get anywhere on race day.

Therefore you'd have these minnows trying their utmost to build these rapid one lap cars, attempting to outspend each other.

And they'd still fail because they are embarrassments. No points in qualifying, no points in the race. All that money to go backwards!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I dare say a qualifying spec car would struggle to get anywhere on race day.

Therefore you'd have these minnows trying their utmost to build these rapid one lap cars, attempting to outspend each other.

And they'd still fail because they are embarrassments. No points in qualifying, no points in the race. All that money to go backwards!

I'm not so sure. I think it would solve a lot of problems.

o You'd have an out and out battle for qualifying - what fans want !

o 'Saturday Special' minnows would go all out for Saturday points and throw a curved ball among the big boys.

o More points and exposure for these teams would help their budgets and move them further up the order.

o Assuming the Saturday Specials couldn't go the distance on Sunday... then they'd retire early before being lapped... reducing the traffic effect for those at the front.

o The big boys could not afford to ignore qualifying on Saturday as they'd be forsaking points.

Isn't it a bit like pace makers in long distance running ? I think it could be quite interesting.

[chillibowl]

good points on both sides.

buto some extent i think people forget about the people who spend their money to go to races. they are paying (a lot) to see action and drama on all days not just on the day of the race.

whether it was the old days where the track was empty for the first 30-40 minutes of quali to now when drivers are opting to save a set of tires and run less, its the people there who are losing out. imo there should never be a situation where less running is the ideal.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I dare say a qualifying spec car would struggle to get anywhere on race day.

Therefore you'd have these minnows trying their utmost to build these rapid one lap cars, attempting to outspend each other.

And they'd still fail because they are embarrassments. No points in qualifying, no points in the race. All that money to go backwards!

Isn't the Red Bull arguably a qualifying spec car? Just a very good one.
It could easily help those minnow teams get further up the grid.

[Marbot]

I would say that 'any' car that can get to the front of the grid in qualifying isn't going to do too badly in the race, since 50% of the job has already been done.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I would say that 'any' car that can get to the front of the grid in qualifying isn't going to do too badly in the race, since 50% of the job has already been done.

Not now, and that I can only see that as a good thing.

I really don't understand why people are so hung up on qualifying (I'm talking to you Knowlesy). As far am I concerned, it's just a way of sorting out who starts where. Fairly irrelevant to me, although I do watch it - I am really most interested in the race and who wins in. Where qualifying has such a great influence on the result (as has happened in previous seasons), it's not really a race, it's a procession.

Look at it this way. If the race went exactly with qualifying , then the cars would finish in the order they started. No point in racing at all. Its happened in the past, and would become common place, if there were no tyres changes, and no DRS. Artificial they may be, but they add sufficient variability to the race to make what had become something extremely boring, to something that has been quite exciting. It's not pure, but then, if you want pure, there are plenty of other series to follow that don't have artificial means to spice up the racing. Karting for example. Can't get much purer than that. 4 wheels, engine, seat, steering wheel. No aero, no tyre changes, no fuel stops.

Still, I guess some people are never happy.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Define a race for me. Clue: overtaking doesn't come into it, as nice as it is.

1. a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing.

Your right, doesn't mention overtaking. Obviously not required. Cancel Sundays.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Jesus wept.

He did indeed, but not over qualifying.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

All I know is I wouldn't pay to go to a GP now. No qualifying battle, utterly confusing races (trackside it must be impossible to follow). The whole spectacle is cheapened and overtaking moves committed via DRS are false.

Well, lots of people pay to go to GP's and never see the qualifying anyway, they only go on race day (weekend tickets being the price they are)

Which is falsest? Having a car 2s a lap quicker than the car in front, but being unable to overtake because of aero issues. Or providing a mechanism that negates the aero problem, so the faster car can overtake?

I would propose that both are equally false.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

good points on both sides.

buto some extent i think people forget about the people who spend their money to go to races. they are paying (a lot) to see action and drama on all days not just on the day of the race.

whether it was the old days where the track was empty for the first 30-40 minutes of quali to now when drivers are opting to save a set of tires and run less, its the people there who are losing out. imo there should never be a situation where less running is the ideal.

But i'd argue that what they lose in qualifying, they definitely more than gain on raceday.

They'll see overtaking!! Which is generally more than what i've seen at the 2 GP's i've been to (Monaco admittedly, and Silverstone).

Selby

[MarkG]

I'm with JamesH on this one.. agree with all his posts. One thing though, I do agree with whoever suggested extra tyres for Q3. It would be better for spectators at the track, it would be better for the top 10 drivers in Q3, but I suspect the F1 powers will only deem it worthwhile if TV viewing is affected, sadly.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

But i'd argue that what they lose in qualifying, they definitely more than gain on raceday.

They'll see overtaking!! Which is generally more than what i've seen at the 2 GP's i've been to (Monaco admittedly, and Silverstone).

Selby

You see overtaking on motorways. Which is pretty much what DRS is, driver behind move to fast lane.

What the trackside spectator gets is total confusion. I can guarantee you would not be able to follow the race properly now.

People will be paying hundreds for that privilege, must feel like mugs.

[Knowlesy]

I wouldn't worry yourself JamesH. You're happy with the new F1. Most people are.

It just makes me very sad. I felt the sport was making good moves since Max was gone but this year has spoiled all that. And soon the 2013 regs will come and kill the whole thing off.

I don't like what I see. I miss the driver versus the clock, hour long qualifying battles. I resent the unfair DRS system. KERS is not justified. The cars are heading towards spec ever more. The calendar is ever more third world. I just hate this new direction to placate armchair idiots whilst the trackside fan is shafted.

A golden generation of drivers wasted.

[luke g28]

As much as I was just about to champion points for qualifying positions, how far ahead would that put RBR.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I see your point, Knowlesy.

But I also used to get fed up with people referring to 2008/09/10 as "classic" seasons. They wern't. The on track action was mainly pretty poor. The actual races, were not good races.

I always found that more irritating than this whole "artificial" argument. F1 isn't just about the championship and that being a close battle. I'd rather have good races in the championship, not a load of processions leading to a tight last few races.

How boring was Abu Dhabi considering it was a championship finalé?

Plus, how many people on here used to slate F1 around this time because "The GP2 have better races! At least there's overtaking..."?

Selby

[Marbot]

F1 appears to have become a victim of its own success.

Everyone and anyone jumping on the gravy train to get as much out of it as possible with little thought for how they leave it behind or how they influence its direction.

It's not a sport, it's a business. And it's currently in the business of entertainment. Deal With It.