Massa (BRA) future??

[stripedcat]

Yeah Massa had a bad race yesterday. Okay, he is signed for 2012, but Ferrari have a habit of throwing out their drivers if they are not up to the job. If they do sign someone new, they will have to play second fiddle to Alonso. Not sure how many drivers would like to do that.

[rocketracer]

it's an interesting question - and i do believe that massa is on his last legs at ferrari (but still has a few seasons of value in f1).

as others have mentioned, heidfeld would be a good option, as i dont think he's outright as quick as alonso, but will bring home good consistent points. Short term option whilst other drivers (perez etc) mature, as i think a 2nd season driver would be too much of a short term risk.

webber - especially given the technical knowledge of the red bull, would be invaluable to give a 1 or 2 season cameo in a ferrari. I think he is at the end of his endurance with RBR, and personally cant see both parties prolonging the relationship successfully beyond this year.

I will throw another name out of left field, whilst not being completely suited, i could see him doing a good job: Glockdog.

timo seems to be the forgotten man of f1, who started to really come on song at toyota before that whole operation fell apart. He has shown he's a good consistent performer, who has spent enough years in f1 to be comfortable with the level of fitness, concentration, pressure that would come with a top drive. and whilst a little time in the wilderness doesnt tend to do many favours for f1 drivers, i think he would complement alonso well.

hulkenberg could possibly work.

Button seems pretty happy at Mclaren, and a bit too laid back for the ferrari environment.

heikki tanked at mclaren, and whilst he seems to be driving really well at the moment, i dont think he would work well at ferrari.

sutil - a little inconsistent, and i dont think you'd get more out of him than you're already getting from massa.

[JeremySmith]

Petrov....

[Razzzor]

Glock certainly is destroying his teammate lately, but he and Trulli were pretty even drivers and Trulli was never really a winner

Heikki did tank at McLaren, he'll probably never get another top 5 team drive. He definitely deserves mid--pack though.

Sutil - yep too inconsistent. Sometimes great but his rookie team mate has been beating him occassionally so Sutil has really gone downhill this year in reputation.

Hulkenberg - I'm still unsure about him. His pole was epic, he occassionally matched Rubens. He was lightning fast in the lower ranks. I'm amazed he was replaced with Maldonaldo this year. Maldonaldo is just another mid-field runner, not a champion. Renault should have hired Hulkenberg over Heidfeld, just so we can see if he has more potential.

Button - he could work at Ferrari. He'll always be #2, Alonso will beat him, but the races that Alonso screws up on strategy Button will be there to collect since he's so different with tyre conservation. Some situation as Hamilton and Button at McLaren really. Except that Button has no reason at all to leave McLaren anytime soon.

To be honest, I don't see Massa leaving in 2012, and I still see Webber at RB in 2012. But both will be gone 2013.

herowassenna; I don't think Massa had the measure of RK and MS at all. Both of them beat him to the WDC in the same team. In fact, Massa winning the WDC in 2007 would have been even worse than Hill and Button's championships.

[PorscheCurves]

Hi there, this is my first post.

I think that Kobayashi should replace Massa. He has shown some promise at Sauber and with a good car could contest for wins.

If Perez had of had more experience, maybe he would be a good candidate for the seat.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by PorscheCurves

Hi there, this is my first post.

I think that Kobayashi should replace Massa. He has shown some promise at Sauber and with a good car could contest for wins.

If Perez had of had more experience, maybe he would be a good candidate for the seat.

Hmmm, does anyone else think Kobayashi is slightly overrated. Sure he's had some flamboyant flashes of brilliance in particular with his aggressive overtaking moves, but so did Sato, and where did they get him (leading in the last IRL race before throwing his 1st victory away)? He's fast sometimes, but very inconsistent. Perez has already beaten him this year, I think. Just my opinion anyway, but Japan's never really produced a race winning quality F1 driver. Or China for that matter.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

herowassenna; I don't think Massa had the measure of RK and MS at all. Both of them beat him to the WDC in the same team. In fact, Massa winning the WDC in 2007 would have been even worse than Hill and Button's championships.

My apologies, I expressed myself wrong. On occasion, he had the beating of TGF, admittedly on his way to retirement.
Kimi in his first half season with Ferrari conffirmed why I believe Ferrari had made a tragic mistake. He completely turned in round to win the WDC.... to this day I believe there was behind the scene going's on. It just seemed amazing how Mclaren imploded over the last 2 races with drivers as good as Alonso and Hamilton. One a rookie but the other guy was seasoned.

Regarding Massa in 2008, some great drives, but like you say, would have had a Hill Button Villeneuve tinge to it...
But Massa did beat Kimi in 2008 and was ahead of him in 2009 when he had the accident.
I remember all publications at start of 2010 speaking as if Massa would compete against Alonso. Almost to the letter what was written about Fisichella in 2005 going back to Renault. Never been beaten by a team-mate etc etc.

Alonso IMO, is the greatest since A.Senna

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

My apologies, I expressed myself wrong. On occasion, he had the beating of TGF, admittedly on his way to retirement.
Kimi in his first half season with Ferrari conffirmed why I believe Ferrari had made a tragic mistake. He completely turned in round to win the WDC.... to this day I believe there was behind the scene going's on. It just seemed amazing how Mclaren imploded over the last 2 races with drivers as good as Alonso and Hamilton. One a rookie but the other guy was seasoned.

Regarding Massa in 2008, some great drives, but like you say, would have had a Hill Button Villeneuve tinge to it...
But Massa did beat Kimi in 2008 and was ahead of him in 2009 when he had the accident.
I remember all publications at start of 2010 speaking as if Massa would compete against Alonso. Almost to the letter what was written about Fisichella in 2005 going back to Renault. Never been beaten by a team-mate etc etc.

Alonso IMO, is the greatest since A.Senna

Yeah Massa was beating RK in 2008, but I think RK was far from his best that year; he seemed to be over F1. Just like Hakkinen 2001. RK did come on strong again in 2009 though - his Spa win was brilliant, and I think once Badoer and Fisi joined the Ferrari team they showed just how tricky the Ferrari was to drive. I was surprised Alonso got to grips with it instantly, but ultimately RK at his best would beat Massa at his best. RK is one of those drivers that we never really got to see his full potential because he retired earlier than many others. RB and MS have spent twice as long in F1.

Since the early 80s I'd probably rank them:
MS/Senna equal, Prost, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel/Hakkinen/Mansell equal.

[Dan Fielden]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

Regarding Massa in 2008, some great drives, but like you say, would have had a Hill Button Villeneuve tinge to it...

I don't subscribe to the idea you can have a poor world champion irrespective of the manner in which it was won. They don't give away world titles and the only thing that can be asked of you is you score more points than the guys put in-front of you. On what grounds is it being de-valued? Button storming start to 2009 (with the best car admitedly) made it easier, but he still had to win them, but isn't that A) How Vettel is leading at the moment and B) How Schumacher won 3 of his world titles?

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by Dan Fielden

I don't subscribe to the idea you can have a poor world champion irrespective of the manner in which it was won. They don't give away world titles and the only thing that can be asked of you is you score more points than the guys put in-front of you. On what grounds is it being de-valued? Button storming start to 2009 (with the best car admitedly) made it easier, but he still had to win them, but isn't that A) How Vettel is leading at the moment and B) How Schumacher won 3 of his world titles?

Well said, couldn't have put it better myself.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yeah Massa was beating RK in 2008, but I think RK was far from his best that year; he seemed to be over F1.

I'm sorry, but a driver who takes it to the last corner of the last race of the season deserves his plaudits imo.

It's worth remembering that Kimi only won the title the year before because Felipe let him through. It could be argued that Kimi returned the favour in 2008, but fact remains, had Felipe not let Kimi through, records would show that they bettered one another once each, without a WDC and Massa had the legs on Kimi before his accident.

As for Kimi not being at his best in 2008, he set 10 of 17 fastest laps iirc, so he was no slouch.

[Bononi]

I'm sure the accident has affected Massa, even if only for a millisec but it makes all difference.

[EGG]

Do Brazilians have a tendency to retire before they're pushed though? Barrichello, Barros and numerous champcar/irl drivers seemed to stay as long as they were able.

I think at most they would give Webber 1 year (irrespective of performance), and Webber would know that. So unless he planned to retire in 2013 or was prepared to move down-field I think it's unlikely.

Would like to see Hulkenberg or Kobayashi there, but I suspect both would be a gamble from Ferrari's perspective.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by EGG

Do Brazilians have a tendency to retire before they're pushed though? Barrichello, Barros and numerous champcar/irl drivers seemed to stay as long as they were able.

I think at most they would give Webber 1 year (irrespective of performance), and Webber would know that. So unless he planned to retire in 2013 or was prepared to move down-field I think it's unlikely.

Would like to see Hulkenberg or Kobayashi there, but I suspect both would be a gamble from Ferrari's perspective.

Brazilians are weird people...

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by PorscheCurves

Hi there, this is my first post.

I think that Kobayashi should replace Massa. He has shown some promise at Sauber and with a good car could contest for wins.

If Perez had of had more experience, maybe he would be a good candidate for the seat.

Hi PorscheCurves. Welcome to Ten-Tenths.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Hmmm, does anyone else think Kobayashi is slightly overrated?

No.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Sure he's had some flamboyant flashes of brilliance in particular with his aggressive overtaking moves, but so did Sato, and where did they get him (leading in the last IRL race before throwing his 1st victory away)? He's fast sometimes, but very inconsistent. Perez has already beaten him this year, I think. Just my opinion anyway, but Japan's never really produced a race winning quality F1 driver. Or China for that matter.

He has been demonstrably better than Sato. We will not know how he will go in a top team until we see him there, but I would not wish to see Kamui's potential stifled by being a number 2. I suppose it's logical to presume Alonso would usually be ahead by the natural measure of things, but if Kamui had to yield on more than a couple of occasions, it would be bad for him. I wouldn't say Perez has beaten him this year. Kobayashi has been ahead more often than not. I think Perez just beat him in Australia and in the last race (in which Kamui started from the back through no fault of his own). Sergio has real potential as well though.

[chillibowl]

even if Ferrari were interested in replacing him i would guess that it will be someone from their young driver program. as has been said before Seb and Hammy are not going anywhere for the time being and i dont see how a Button, Webber, or Rosberg brings more to the team than Massa.

my personal feeling is that Ferrari have already made their choice to stick with Massa for the next couple of years. maybe its loyalty maybe its for ease of team dynamic (or maybe they know how much i rate him)but they had their chance to replace him when Alonso joined up (rather they could have kept Kimi). it wasn't for lack of money as they paid Kimi to stay away and it wasn't motivated by WCC points so for me it goes back to their love of Massa.

granted if they start producing race winning cars again that need changes but again i dont think Ferrari cares much about the WCC or the money that comes from it.

[kipper]

I can't see Massa staying at Ferrari for too much longer, mainly on account of Alonso's relative dominance within the team. I wouldn't be surprised if Webber was bought for a relatively short period whilst either Perez or Bianchi gain more F1 experience. As for Massa, I suspect that he'll want to stay in F1 of which his best options would probably be Williams, Sauber or Force India.

[Bononi]

He'll retire after his contract deal ends.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Bononi

He'll retire after his contract deal ends.

I think that's sound logic Bon, after the career he's had with Ferrari, when to my mind in 2008 he was the class of the field, why would he want to tug around in anything else. Just wouldn't make sense. Better to go out sensibly rather than drift into obscurity in uncompetitive equipment.

[Dan Fielden]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I think that's sound logic Bon, after the career he's had with Ferrari, when to my mind in 2008 he was the class of the field, why would he want to tug around in anything else. Just wouldn't make sense. Better to go out sensibly rather than drift into obscurity in uncompetitive equipment.

True but mind you. Eddie Irvine didn't mind p1ssin about in a Jag for a few seasons to ensure the bank balance stayed nicely in the black did he

[PorscheCurves]

Originally Posted by Bononi

He'll retire after his contract deal ends.

Then he might go to endurance racing with one of the Ferrari gt teams.

[kurski]

Originally Posted by kipper

I can't see Massa staying at Ferrari for too much longer, mainly on account of Alonso's relative dominance within the team.

I believe that Felipe Massa will continue next year under the contract Scuderia Ferrari team, but during the 2013 Felipe is no longer any Ferrari team.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by PorscheCurves

Then he might go to endurance racing with one of the Ferrari gt teams.

Nope.

[chillibowl]

probably there is some insight here most of us are not aware of, but without knowing that i have to think that as an athlete and with the exception of very very few most of those who retired early regret their decision. arguably his mentor being the best example of that.

if its not F1 then surely its another series. early 30's is a bit young to retire from life. is it better to drift off into obscurity in uncompetitive equipment or sitting in obscurity in your living room for the the next 50 years?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Dan Fielden

True but mind you. Eddie Irvine didn't mind p1ssin about in a Jag for a few seasons to ensure the bank balance stayed nicely in the black did he

To be fair to Eddie, if he didn't want to retire at that stage and Jag were prepared to pay him the money they did, then why wouldn't he stay on for a bit.