Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Greem

We could even argue over whether Nige had the best moustache F1 has ever seen.

I dare say Graham Hill's 'tache would give Mansell's a good run. And there's Rosberg senior, Alonso, and an honourable mention for Emmo's never-quite-meeting-in-the-middle side chops.

Hamilton himself has been known to sport the occasional caterpillar, too, so this post is even more thread-relevant than I thought!

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wved6k7/

Harald Ertl

[john ruston]

So the stats on race wins coupled with pole positions confirms that Michael S weakness was qualifying?
Got a bit to do with number of races competed in.
If you can sort some sort of mathematical table to sort this out you will qualify for a high flying job with Sage!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by john ruston

So the stats on race wins coupled with pole positions confirms that Michael S weakness was qualifying?
Got a bit to do with number of races competed in.
If you can sort some sort of mathematical table to sort this out you will qualify for a high flying job with Sage!

'twas done while ago....

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2019/11/22/the-f1metrics-top-100/

The caveat from the list I would mention is:

The top 7 all-time greats
At this point in the top 100 list, it would be fair to say we have reached drivers with no obvious gaps remaining in their game. Indeed, the peak performances of the top 7 drivers in the list are all within statistical uncertainty of the #1 driver in the list, meaning we cannot say with any great confidence how the top 7 should be ordered.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wved6k7/

Harald Ertl

Winner. No doubt about it (although it is a bit of a cheat as some of it is technically beard, but hey ho).

[coppice]

[

Originally Posted by john ruston

Nige didn’t look that good when he binned it going up the hill to Casino Square in the Lotus or the hands off wheel in Canada
Of course he was very good but not in same level as Hamilton, Fangio,Clark, Senna.
It’s pretty good to be considered in same bracket as Ascari,Surtees, Prost,Gurney, and a few others]

I don't know which Nige was in the same bracket as Prost or Ascari (especially ) but he sure wasn't called Mansell. On his day, and in the right car Nigel was invincible but I really could never place him in the top echelon of drivers. He took a long time , relatively , to look convincing , and , as a team member seemed shamelessly eager to blame others for failures but equally reluctant to give credit to them for successes.

As an individual now , I find him harm to warm to - the last podcast I heard him do was a cringeworthy saga of humble bragging and self mythology

[Aysedasi]

It's strange (and, forgive me, rather off-topic) but my abiding memory of 'our Nige' was seeing him going through as the last of the teams at scrutineering at Le Mans in 2010 with his sons. There were only a few people left watching scrutineering in the town and the ACO staff were literally taking down the scrutineering area as he and his car passed through it, it was rather sad to watch. But not quite as sad as the performance in the race when he shunted it after just 4 laps..... not particularly hircine......

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

...But this is why people like Nige, James Hunt, Gilles V and Stefan Belloff etc. In the latter two cases we never saw what could have been.

for sure i see that but also with that i think we risk going too subjective which makes this more a thread about 'who my favorite driver is and why'...which is a perfectly valid and fun thread to have.

for such a data driven sport surely there exists useful data sets that at least begins to speak to comparing across eras (as mentioned for me it is win totals combined with win%). that may not give us a definitive answer but surely it is enough to objectively exclude some from the conversation.

but that aside, Graham Hill has the best motorsports moustache ever! scientifically speaking it had aerodynamic properties.: rotate:

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

wins when not starting on pole is also an interesting one.

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiq...sans-pole.aspx

That’s interesting. Very impressed with all of the ones near the top.

Obviously Schumacher’s number is impressive. Was his weakness qualifying? I think he was just so strong in the race and, compared to some of his main competitors, lost out to some really good qualifiers.

As is Prost’s as a proportion of his overall wins. I remember his approach being very much get the race right and, of course, came from a different era.

But that is probably. I wouldn’t describe any of these at weak at an aspect of racing, but rather they had different strengths.

There is some era differences creeping in here.

[S griffin]

Michael wasn’t quick over a single lap than Mika, the one man he truly feared. An even bigger weakness though was his susceptibility to pressure

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Greem

We could even argue over whether Nige had the best moustache F1 has ever seen.

I dare say Graham Hill's 'tache would give Mansell's a good run. And there's Rosberg senior, Alonso, and an honourable mention for Emmo's never-quite-meeting-in-the-middle side chops.

Hamilton himself has been known to sport the occasional caterpillar, too, so this post is even more thread-relevant than I thought!

Clearly you never met Harald Ertl!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

wins when not starting on pole is also an interesting one.

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiq...sans-pole.aspx

That's an interesting stat. Actually there are some very interesting stats on that site, which appeal to my inner nerd. I was intrigued by the number of Grand Prix between Hamilton and Schumacher. Hamilton has 264 Grand Prix including last Sunday's race where he won his 7th WDC. Schumacher has 308 Grand Prix but won his 7th WDC at the Belgian in 2004, which I believe was his 208th Grand Prix.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's an interesting stat. Actually there are some very interesting stats on that site, which appeal to my inner nerd. I was intrigued by the number of Grand Prix between Hamilton and Schumacher. Hamilton has 264 Grand Prix including last Sunday's race where he won his 7th WDC. Schumacher has 308 Grand Prix but won his 7th WDC at the Belgian in 2004, which I believe was his 208th Grand Prix.

What you got to remember though is that there are more races now than there was in Schumi's day. As well as the fact that Lewis has never missed a race since he started in F1. However interesting that both have won their seventh title in their 14th season at the same age (35)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

What you got to remember though is that there are more races now than there was in Schumi's day. As well as the fact that Lewis has never missed a race since he started in F1. However interesting that both have won their seventh title in their 14th season at the same age (35)

True, the seasons are longer but would that effect significantly alter a difference of 56 races? Schumacher didn't race a full season in 1991, only 5 races.

[S griffin]

Yes, so Hamilton is bound to have more races, he hasn’t missed a race since his debut!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, so Hamilton is bound to have more races, he hasn’t missed a race since his debut!

Schumacher has more races, 308 in total, despite his brief retirement after 2006 before he joined the fledgling Mercedes in 2010.

[john ruston]

The Mercedes Team won the world championship in 2009. Not very fledgling.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The Mercedes Team won the world championship in 2009. Not very fledgling.

Well, it's recorded as Brawn-Mercedes......

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The Mercedes Team won the world championship in 2009. Not very fledgling.

That was Brawn-Mercedes.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well, it's recorded as Brawn-Mercedes......

Yes, by that logic 1998 as well!

(God help me I posted in this trainwreck of a thread)

Richard

[john ruston]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Yes, by that logic 1998 as well!

(God help me I posted in this trainwreck of a thread)

Mercedes bought Braun for 150 million Quid or so after RB had bought it from Honda for a quid the previous Winter

Basically same personnel etc

Good deal for all parties or have I got it wrong?

[Peter Mallett]

Soooo, Mercedes is the GOAT then.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

True, the seasons are longer but would that effect significantly alter a difference of 56 races? Schumacher didn't race a full season in 1991, only 5 races.

to add to that, do we go by seasons or do we go by races entered by a specific chassis designation? development cycles of the past often meant cars were run over multiple seasons so would have ran more races then one would see in a current F1 season.

number of wins per chassis (unfortunately or maybe fortunately i dont have the time to break down which win went to each driver) from that site. lots of fun for nerd to be found here for sure!

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiq...re/modele.aspx

the W07 Merc is at the top of the list with 19 wins(with both Nico and LH winning a lot of races that season), but after that, wins by chassis seems fairly close with cars like the Mclaren M23 and Ferrari F2002 having run across multiple season.

does that neutralizes the actual number of races per season argument?

rather, if Schumi, Prost, Senna had run more races in seasons in which they won the title would their win totals be higher?

no doubt yes with the MP4/4, but even with Prost or Senna surely that alone doesn't bridge the gap of making up the 40+ less wins deficit they have to LH.

Schumi on the other hand would surely have scored more wins meaning LH might not yet have eclipsed this record.

obviously in isolation these numbers dont mean much though...just fun for nerds though!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Mercedes bought Braun for 150 million Quid or so after RB had bought it from Honda for a quid the previous Winter

Basically same personnel etc

Good deal for all parties or have I got it wrong?

Perfectly accurate! It doesn't mean Mercedes can claim the Brawn championship however. Just like Honda can't claim it either (basically same personnel).

Richard

[john ruston]

I was pointing out the Mercedes team of 2010 were not a fledgling outfit.
It was a ready made gang and you could consider that they should have had more success early on.
This raises the point that it wasn’t until Lewis joined they became successful.
That should guarantee that this thread carries on for another page!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I was pointing out the Mercedes team of 2010 were not a fledgling outfit.
It was a ready made gang and you could consider that they should have had more success early on.
This raises the point that it wasn’t until Lewis joined they became successful.
That should guarantee that this thread carries on for another page!

the first thing that Toto Wolff identified at Mercedes was that they were underfunded, and he went to the Daimler Board and told them they either had to get serious and fund the team properly in order to promote the Merdes' winning culture or leave F1.
This ramp up coincided with Lewis' joining Mercedes.

Toto Wolff : Building Mercedes into Seven Time Champions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDgQEQQfYew