Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Graz

...
Statistically the most successful does not mean the best for the reasons above.

...

I'm in my mid 40's but feel the greatest were the guys in the 30's, 50's, 60's and 70's who I didn't see. They had so much more to deal with. Jim Clarke could easily have raced into the mid 70's and what a record he would have had but the times didn't allow it.

I never saw Jim Clark either, but he’s a worthy candidate for GOAT (location checks out).

There is a great statistic to do with him. 25 wins, only one second place.

I think he had a great chance to get many many more wins. After all he was in a team and had a team boss completely dedicated to him. Although perhaps we should disregard him because of this?

[Akrapovic]

Schumacher is out too. And Senna.

I think by the time we're done eliminating drivers based on this criteria, Romain Grosjean is GOAT.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Graz

That's not my point. I'm saying there are too many variables for anyone to be the GOAT. I've never seen Hamilton against Fangio for instance.

I don't quite understand why people are piling in on others and mocking a strawman of their posts. I agree with what is being said here - the GOAT label is entirely subjective, there are too many variables to make it objective the moment outright records aren't the only variable used. There is also a difference between variables and criteria. Just because Graz here rates the bygone pioneer era as the ultimate for drivers doesn't make it objectively right or wrong, but his own subjective criteria

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Bloody hell. The country which elected a reality TV star as president is confused about others fascination with celebrity. And doesn't understand a basic civilian decorations system because it has different names to what his own country does. Location checks out, right?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

I don't quite understand why people are piling in on others and mocking a strawman of their posts. I agree with what is being said here - the GOAT label is entirely subjective, there are too many variables to make it objective the moment outright records aren't the only variable used. There is also a difference between variables and criteria. Just because Graz here rates the bygone pioneer era as the ultimate for drivers doesn't make it objectively right or wrong, but his own subjective criteria

Thanks, that's exactly it 👍

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Schumacher is out too. And Senna.

I think by the time we're done eliminating drivers based on this criteria, Romain Grosjean is GOAT.

Excellent. Sorted. We can clearly all agree on this.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

I don't quite understand why people are piling in on others and mocking a strawman of their posts. I agree with what is being said here - the GOAT label is entirely subjective, there are too many variables to make it objective the moment outright records aren't the only variable used. There is also a difference between variables and criteria. Just because Graz here rates the bygone pioneer era as the ultimate for drivers doesn't make it objectively right or wrong, but his own subjective criteria

I hope you don’t think I was mocking Graz’s post. Quite the opposite, taking his point and showing how, when someone makes a perfectly valid point, it’s so easy to build that strawman.

So, in the same way you can say Hamilton doesn’t deserve it you could say pretty much any great driver doesn’t. Perfectly demonstrated by Akrapovic’s post after mine that was making the same point with Senna and Schumacher.

It was more Graz ain’t wrong, and neither is someone who suggests Hamilton.

[Aysedasi]

So no-one is wrong.

(Apart from Akrapovic......... probably........ ).

[greentrumpet]

Seems to be a fair bit of clickbait suggesting Hamilton thinking of retiring one year before taking the record number of titles. Misquotes, "don't reduce my pay" or "Look at me!"?

[john ruston]

He’s paid less than several US domestic sportsman and two footballers.
Why shouldn’t he get best deal he can?
SV probably on that type of rate at AM

Nothing like a major dose of envy!
Having watched major drives by superstars on here I would say Fangio at The Ring, Clark at the wet Spa ,Senna at Donington, Moss at Ring,Hamilton at wet Silverstone and a grudging admiration for Stewart at wet and foggy Ring Stand out
How you differentiate between these I have no idea only they were all very special

[greentrumpet]

There has been talk of M-B wanting to cut his pay so I can understand him wanting to push back against that. I cannot understand the greatest driver of the generation really wanting to stop short of beating the all time record now he's so close.
Bernd Rosemeyer handling the Auto Union was by all accounts pretty special too.

[Aysedasi]

He won't stop short. And Merc will pay him what he wants.

[john ruston]

Who knows?
Probably only him and not sure he’s set on what he’s doing!

[Aysedasi]

Oh, I think he probably is.... When you're winning everything and ensuring that your team also wins everything, you don't go while there are still records to be beaten and you don't let him go either.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I hope you don’t think I was mocking Graz’s post. Quite the opposite, taking his point and showing how, when someone makes a perfectly valid point, it’s so easy to build that strawman.

So, in the same way you can say Hamilton doesn’t deserve it you could say pretty much any great driver doesn’t. Perfectly demonstrated by Akrapovic’s post after mine that was making the same point with Senna and Schumacher.

It was more Graz ain’t wrong, and neither is someone who suggests Hamilton.

Your post was actually elaborated into an argument, it was the other 2 that really made me roll my eyes. Having said that, maybe I pushed back a little too hard with what I said, since I agree with what all that you've said here.

[Adam43]

sometimes (?) my posts get a bit silly

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

sometimes (?) my posts get a bit silly

Once upon a time you were sarcastic, now silly as well? Does that count as multitasking?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I hope you don’t think I was mocking Graz’s post. Quite the opposite, taking his point and showing how, when someone makes a perfectly valid point, it’s so easy to build that strawman.

So, in the same way you can say Hamilton doesn’t deserve it you could say pretty much any great driver doesn’t. Perfectly demonstrated by Akrapovic’s post after mine that was making the same point with Senna and Schumacher.

It was more Graz ain’t wrong, and neither is someone who suggests Hamilton.

Just to note, I never said anyone doesn't deserve it. It's got nothing to do with one deserving over another or anyone deserving.

Some people need a 'greatest,'but I can't call anyone the greatest for the reasons I outlined elsewhere. That's my opinion, not right,not wrong.


'Deserve' has nothing to do with this at all.


Others clearly feel it is possible and I respect that opinion.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Graz

Just to note, I never said anyone doesn't deserve it. It's got nothing to do with one deserving over another or anyone deserving.

Poorly worded from me again. Just running with your post

[Born Racer]

By the way, well done people. From being a bit of a whinging pom-bash at the beginning, where this thread had the potential to stay downhil, it has developed into something interesting.

[FAS33]

Your Welcome. Hamilton should quit so the real GOAT Daniel
Ricciardo can dominate F1 again.

[Born Racer]

Daniel could well dominate even with Hamilton there. In fact, he'd probably prefer him to be around to beat him.

[bathurst77]

Lulu is the greatest of the last decade. Of all time? no
There is no GOAT, because the skills reflexes and abilities needed to drive 1 type of car from one era are totally different to another.

Look at Vettel, in the 2010 spec cars he was god, since the hybrids came in hes embarrassing hmself.
Put Lulu in Fangio/farina/jack brabham/or a ground effects lotus, he might be crap.
similarly put a 1950s - 2000 immortal in lulus merc and they might cry.... or win, we will never know.

in every era there were one or two drivers who will go down as the greatest of their time, at driving that spec car. immortal for that. Lulu has earned his place with them. But neither he, nor anyone, will ever be Greatest of all time.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Daniel could well dominate even with Hamilton there. In fact, he'd probably prefer him to be around to beat him.

And someone to share a celebratory 'shoey' with.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by FAS33

as much as I dislike the bloke. Mainly cause he’s a Pom and he whinges a lot. He is the greatest, and he can drive like no one else can. Schumacher won so many titles cause he had the best car. I thought he was the best. Hamilton Surpassing most of the drivers or yesteryears records’ means he is the GOAT. He will win it again this year too. who knows, somebody else might have the skill and the luck and dethrone him. But his record speaks for itself, and it’ll be very hard to beat.

I think he needs to beat Schumi's 7 WDCs to be the GOAT and that is doable.