Joest LMP1 2017

[knighty]

This looks very interesting on sportscar365

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/joest-exploring-future-lmp1-non-hybrid-option/

So Joest are looking at using the still-born 2017 Audi chassis, but with a customer gasoline engine.......so I'm thinking either AER V6 turbo, Nissan V6 turbo.......or in the normally aspirated court Judd V8 or V10, or perhaps the Gibson V8 LMP1 motors......but I'm thinking surely it would need to be some sort of V6 to actually fit, therefore only the AER or Nissan V6 units will fit?.......or perhaps use the Audi gasoline research engine that was reportedly on the test bench......but I honestly dont know if that was a 4 or a 6 pot

Seems like they have 45 members of staff to keep employed, and I know in Germany to make people redundant is a very very painful financial exercise, as Toyota found out when they tried to close TMG F1 facility in Cologne, it was actually cheaper to turn it into a consultancy, which actually worked!.......therefore going the privateer route could be an attractive route for Joest, and I'm sure the ACO will be bending over backwards to help them and keep the LMP1 numbers up, otherwise its going to be an embarrassment in 2017 with just Porsche and Toyota racing each other with just 6 cars and 1 Kolles

[Speed-King]

From that article:

“If there would be a proper solution to achieve that, it would be something that could be thought about,” Juttner told Sportscar365. “But you’d need money to run them.

What kind of money are we talking about here? And where's that money gonna come from?

If they the goal is to keep the gang together, they'd probably be better off running GT3, TCR or even Formula 4 customer programs. All three are booming in Germany right now and Juettner pretty much says so himself:

Juttner said putting together a LMP1 non-hybrid program for next year would be an extremely tall order, given the timing, and admits it could be more of a potential project for 2018. [...]"We probably need to look into smaller programs but maybe more two or three."

[gert]

I can't see that happening.

Besides, they also would need the approval of Audi, who probably own the intellectual property of that chassis.

[Akrapovic]

I imagine keeping staff employed isn't an issue, because I doubt Audi manage to stop the contract at the end of the year. Joest will still have a contract and still get paid. They can probably sit about all year and do nothing and still be fine.

But I doubt they'll get the money up to run a P1-L in the current state of that class. Might be best to hire a P2 chassis for the year or run a GT3 car until more solid plans can be confirmed.

[S griffin]

I hope something happens, we need more LMP1s now

[knighty]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I hope something happens, we need more LMP1s now

This is the overall point, and I'm sure the ACO will be quite involved in making it happen, I'm guessing if they can scrape together a 10-20million dollar budget, from someone like an oil or a watch company, they could make it happen, perhaps some of the redundant Audi LMP1 sponsors like Mahle, Shell, Castrol, ORIS, then they can put something together.....it sounds possible

Also in the article, it appears that Audis Juttner is doing a lot of the talking, so I'm guessing its no skin off Audis nose to just give the unwanted 2017 chassis to Joest, also consider there may be a contract in place for Audi & Joest for the next few years that still needs to be honored, therefore its probably within Audis cost interests to just help Joest from behind the scenes, or otherwise face a lawsuit from Joest for breach of contcact.......perhaps

its currently mid November and they have until mid April at Silverstone to put a deal together, so they have 6 months, its tight for sure, but quite doable on the basis that the 2017 Audi is already manufactured, all they have to do is adapt an engine, possibly a gear-box too, and sort out the 60L fuel tank, as it needs to be about 20L bigger for gasoline......the fueltank size itself may be the deal breaker, but I'm sure the ACO could help there, just to get them on the grid.

[Speed-King]

Also in the article, it appears that Audis Juttner is doing a lot of the talking

Wait, isn't Jüttner Joest's right hand man?

[rich07]

Juttner is employed by Joest AFAIK

[Damian Baldi]

The biggest problem with all this, it the size of the fuel tank of that chassis.

[chernaudi]

Joest would be better served by going into DPI with some assistance from under the table from Audi Sport. You can't pack a 75 liter tank into a space where only 55 liters max would fit. Or getting a waiver to allow them to race a 2011-13 spec Audi R18 sans hybrid, though that won't work either, as the 2011-13 cars are 2000mm wide, and have 14.5 inch wide wheels on them, and are from the air restrictor BOP era.

I'm pretty sure that Joest can't sue Audi Sport for breach of contract, as Audi Sport probably have some type of emergency out/opt out clause in their contract, just as Joest himself probably has. Also, it wasn't an Audi Sport decision. I'd say sue the members of the Audi AG board who wanted to ditch prototype racing for Formula E, and maybe also sue Audi CEO Rupert Stadler. I'm surprised he hasn't been forced to resign, since he had to have some knowledge of what his engineers were trying to do.

Though, this does also show the box that the ACO have painted themselves in by jacking up the costs to race not just for private teams, but factories. And as we've seen with Audi Sport/Audi AG, when the boards are no longer interested or find an excuse to kill or scale down a program, that leaves cost heavy classes vulnerable to collapse, especially when ROI is reduced to the point where it no longer makes a ton of sense.

[Damian Baldi]

The easiest way to get Joest running a car, could be running the Orecas from Rebellion because it's a car ready to race. Trying to get one of the new P2 chassis and add an engine or trying to adapt the R18 2017 chassis should be very expensive and they run out of time.

The other option is to buy a spec P2 and run it at IMSA and put the other plans on hold until next year for a DPi or a P1-L

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

The easiest way to get Joest running a car, could be running the Orecas from Rebellion because it's a car ready to race. Trying to get one of the new P2 chassis and add an engine or trying to adapt the R18 2017 chassis should be very expensive and they run out of time.

The other option is to buy a spec P2 and run it at IMSA and put the other plans on hold until next year for a DPi or a P1-L

Totally agree, the fuel tank up-size issue for a gasoline conversion is a BIG one and perhaps impossible to overcome, packing in an additional 20 Litres is perhaps impossible for such a dedicated and trimmed down design originally aimed at the Diesel regs.

Good point about the now retired Rebellion LMP1 cars, perhaps they could shoe-horn in the Nissan V6 LMP1 engine which is being touted about, as Nissan would perhaps be quite willing to have a top team like Joest run it, opposed to the shambles that is Kolles......it would be interesting to see how fast it could go with some decent engineers and drivers behind it......but will always be on the back foot without a hybrid system :-/

[BSchneiderFan]

I honestly don't see this happening. But, then again, would Audi be happy to support both Joest and WRT if the former went GT racing with an R8 LMS?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I honestly don't see this happening. But, then again, would Audi be happy to support both Joest and WRT if the former went GT racing with an R8 LMS?

have you actually read this link?.....hardly wild speculation!

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/joest-exploring-future-lmp1-non-hybrid-option/

A key statement seems this bit:

"With its goal of landing a new manufacturer-backed effort, Juttner said they they are exploring all options in the motorsports world, including IMSA’s new DPi platform, although he stressed it’s early days"

.

[hondafan37]

Head of Audi LMP, Stefan Dreyer has admitted that the 2017-spec Audi R18, codenamed RP7, was nearly complete prior to the decision to end its factory program. “Obviously it had not tested yet but it was very far in development and very far in getting it built,” Dreyer told Sportscar365. “I think it would have been the car to beat.”

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/b...ay-notebook-3/

I would like to see a Joest RP7 non-hybrid!!!!

[GT6]

i do hope this is going to happen, we need a new lmp1 and at least something good will come out of audi's pulling out

[gert]

Originally Posted by knighty

have you actually read this link?.....hardly wild speculation!
...
A key statement seems this bit:

"...Juttner said they they are exploring all options in the motorsports world, including IMSA’s new DPi platform, although he stressed it’s early days"

There's still quite a difference between 'exploring all options' and a program that materializes.

Although I hope it does come together, I sincerely doubt it.
Best option to keep his crew running would be an LMP2 program, or a GT-program.
Based on future wishes, an LMP2-program seems like the best option. And less costly, too IMO.

DPi would probably fit their future ambitions best, although moving to America on short notice probably would not be their best choice.

[TF110]

If they can keep the chassis, what are the chances they can convince Audi to let them run the engine and they stay running diesel? It's far fetched but they would definitely be closer to the front than trying to find a way to get the AER poj in the back and hope it has pace.

[Damian Baldi]

Before talking about putting a different engine on an existing chassis, remember how much time it took to Rebellion to put the AER engine on the back of the Oreca chassis, it took them months and months working before being able to put the car on track. The engine's anchorage, cooling system, gearbox, and electronics (including TC) take a huge amount of time and money.

That's why I don't see this idea working on. Rebellion announced that they will buy two new Oreca 07 instead upgrading the current R-one (Oreca 05 base chassis), so the current cars could be available if they agree to sell them.

I'll like to the a new P-L team, and better if it is a different engine, but as things are today, with whatever other car on track will be ok.

[knighty]

Agreed......from now to mid April is 6 months and that's already very tight in terms of a timing plan for such huge modifications.

perhaps the Trump card is via using Audis LMP1 gasoline test engine which was reported to be on the dyno for an evaluation before dropping the diesel motor......I'm guessing it's a 120 degree V6.

[Starfish Primer]

According to Dieter Gass the 4 cilinder petrol turbo engine for the future DTM regulations is ready. It could be another possibility

[gert]

My advise (*) to Joest: buy an LMP2-chassis, and put the Gibson in.
Keep your money in your pocket, and start thinking about 2018 while keeping your guys employed and busy.
They may enjoy the competition as everyone can win in LMP2 today, and want to prove they are (still) the best.


(*) ... so, probably not going to happen

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by gert

My advise (*) to Joest: buy an LMP2-chassis, and put the Gibson in.
Keep your money in your pocket, and start thinking about 2018 while keeping your guys employed and busy.
They may enjoy the competition as everyone can win in LMP2 today, and want to prove they are (still) the best.


(*) ... so, probably not going to happen

Totally agree, I think it's the most sense idea.

[Damian Baldi]

It looks like SMP will be revamping the BR01 for P1-L in 2018 with the help of Dallara.
That gives an idea about how much time it takes.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

It looks like SMP will be revamping the BR01 for P1-L in 2018 with the help of Dallara.
That gives an idea about how much time it takes.

Actually, it's more likely to be due to the fact that the LMP1 rules are changing for 2018 than anything to do with how long the revamp will take.