Fathers and Sons

[Mags]

Originally posted by jasonhill9884
Gilles was a better driver then Jaques. All because Jacques has a WDC means nothing when Gilles was arguably one of the last gentlemen racers.

AH HA!!

I was told, and by an EXPERT, that a gentleman driver was someone that BOUGHT thier drive!

Gilles sure as heck never bought anything!!

Someone explain, please!!!

I'll retire to bedlam.

[Mags]

Originally posted by marcus
well I can think of one guy who has followed his dad very successfully , ok maybe not in F1 but in other forms you would have to say David Brabham has been very successfull in his career.

David sadly never made it in F1 but boy is he a fantastic sportscar and touring car driver , you better believe it.

His brothers have had good success as well Gary and Geoff , but of the 3 I think David has followed in his dads footsteps the most (just wish he could have won 3 titles as well !!!)

GOOD call! He's cool!!

[Mags]

Originally posted by KC
How does the son live up to legendary status that every dead racing driver earns? Would Gilles be loved to the same degree if he was still alive and had not won a WDC? Hard to say. I love the way he drove and I see a lot of this in Jacques.

I do not agree. I did not see Black Jack (sorry, my Pet Name for him) go out of the starting gate these last 5 years and drive the, ahem, guts out that BAR car until the wings fell off of it. THAT is what Gilles would have done. He would have driven to the ragged edge to qualify the car, or died trying. And, HEY that is WHAT HE DID.

RIP, Gilles.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Mags
I do not agree. I did not see Black Jack (sorry, my Pet Name for him) go out of the starting gate these last 5 years and drive the, ahem, guts out that BAR car until the wings fell off of it. THAT is what Gilles would have done. He would have driven to the ragged edge to qualify the car, or died trying. And, HEY that is WHAT HE DID.

RIP, Gilles.

I'm a long way from a JV fan but I think thats exactly what he did - I even recall the wings coming off too (Australian GP 01?) and maybe another time too.

[Mags]

Originally posted by deeks6
I'm a long way from a JV fan but I think thats exactly what he did - I even recall the wings coming off too (Australian GP 01?) and maybe another time too.

He drove reclessley.. he didn't drive his HEART out.. IMO.

[Andrew Kitson]

Although not an ex-F1 driver, what about Jack Sears, works driver for Team Lotus in Cortinas and Lotus 30, Cobra's for Carroll Shelby, BMC, Willment, Coombes Ferrari etc in the '60s? He is also partly to blame for us having the 70mph speed limit on our roads today, having tested the Shelby Cobra on the M1 motorway in the early 1960s pre-speed limit, the police were horrified to find out that Jack was travelling at 170mph! His son David raced through the ranks up to F3 then did some ETCC with TWR Jaguar. David is boss of the Supernova Racing F3000 team and manages several drivers.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Mags
He drove reclessley.. he didn't drive his HEART out.. IMO.

"Reckless" is not an adjective I have heard often describing Jacques Villeneuve and, despite personally thinking he is a bit overrated, I cannot have the opinion that he did not drive with heart and courage. As I said, he did win a WDC, despite perhaps making hard work of it in clearly the best car. You don't win them without being OK. Jacques probably shared his biggest fault with his father, that being unable to improve car development (or maybe even setup) and simply driving what he had as hard as he could.

That said, reckless is certainly an adjective that could be applied to Gilles on many occaisions, at the very least careless or lacking in judgement. He was particularly hard on cars and had many potentially dangerous accidents, mostly caused by his own over-exhuberence. Lots of F1 fans have a romantic view of GV based on his oversteering, tyre-smoking antics and confuse this with being a truly complete driver. The truth is, half of those fans were probably not born when he was driving and get this from a few highlights. I've seen every single race that he (and Jacques) ever drove and IMO, he was'nt THAT good.

Now, that might be sacreligious to some fans about their idol but it's all subjective and one persons opinion is as good as another. At least the statistics will back up my argument as would the footage of some of Gilles accidents. And thats not to say at all that he couldnt drive or was'nt fast - he could and he was, but you need a lot of other qualities too.

[Mags]

Originally posted by deeks6
"Reckless" is not an adjective I have heard often describing Jacques Villeneuve and, despite personally thinking he is a bit overrated, I cannot have the opinion that he did not drive with heart and courage. As I said, he did win a WDC, despite perhaps making hard work of it in clearly the best car. You don't win them without being OK. Jacques probably shared his biggest fault with his father, that being unable to improve car development (or maybe even setup) and simply driving what he had as hard as he could.

That said, reckless is certainly an adjective that could be applied to Gilles on many occaisions, at the very least careless or lacking in judgement. He was particularly hard on cars and had many potentially dangerous accidents, mostly caused by his own over-exhuberence. Lots of F1 fans have a romantic view of GV based on his oversteering, tyre-smoking antics and confuse this with being a truly complete driver. The truth is, half of those fans were probably not born when he was driving and get this from a few highlights. I've seen every single race that he (and Jacques) ever drove and IMO, he was'nt THAT good.

Now, that might be sacreligious to some fans about their idol but it's all subjective and one persons opinion is as good as another. At least the statistics will back up my argument as would the footage of some of Gilles accidents. And thats not to say at all that he couldnt drive or was'nt fast - he could and he was, but you need a lot of other qualities too.

WHEW, I will let my partner in crime rebutt on that one. I just know, In my heart, how Gilles drove and felt. And it is hard to stand in the Canadian Motor Hall Of Fame and NOT admire Gilles. Seriously. I am shocked to see you say he wasn't THAT good. Enso would NOT have placed him in a Ferrari if he wasn't. IMO.

[Peter Mallett]

This is turning into a GV/JV thread but FWIW, I tend towards the not that good school as well.

However I also think that in '79 GV allowed the team to take his championship. Had he won that he would most definitely be known as a multi champion.

But it wasn't to be and I felt that afterwards he concentrated more on enjoying his racing than gaining a championship. That inevitably lead him into the "gentlemen's agreement" that finally killed him.

A sad loss.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
However I also think that in '79 GV allowed the team to take his championship. Had he won that he would most definitely be known as a multi champion.

A sad loss.

I tend to think even this one is another of those great myths that has grown in time that Jacques "let" Scheckter win the 79 title. Simple facts:
- early in the year GV won 2 races in a row and JS was 2nd...hardly team orders!
- Scheckter remained consistent throughout the year and had a great finishing record, such that he was 16 points in front of GV come the Italian GP. He was 14 points in front of Jones and the Williams had shown improvement in the latter part of the year. Ferrari wanted to wrap up the title.
- GV finished 7 pts behind Scheckter despite outscoring him 15-3 in the last 2 races AFTER the Italian GP. The only thing that kept him in it was the points system of the day.

It IS a great shame and tragedy when ANY driver dies - some just become a lot better after they have died. And Pironi had nothing to do with GV's death (another great and unfair myth) - GV died because he was flung out of his car and landed without his helmet. He was on an IN lap and had probably undone his helmet and belt (who knows) but he had'nt slowed down. Remember, if the kit-car teams had'nt boycotted the Imola race where Pironi passed GV, we would'nt have even been talking about it - they probably would have been 6th and 7th or something.

Anyway, I'm not knocking the guy, ot anyone who likes him either, just adding some reality to it. And it IS a bit off thread...sorry.

[Peter Mallett]

Well I did say I also think.

And like you I saw him race many times. LIVE.

[BootsOntheSide]

Nice analysis there deeks, and it sounds like you're right.

Mentioning the Unsers is interesting, as they're among the few father-son pairs to race against each other. Both achieved great success, but Al Snr seems to have had more application and commitment over the years.

[Hazza]

Unfortunatly this thread has been exausted of ideas but I would like to offer my 2 cents.

I'm not attacking, no flaming but, I feel that Jacques was a fairly talented driver, in so far as condemning jacques is condeming CART and Damon Hill.

[Peter Mallett]

No doubt that Jaques is a talent and he was very good but maybe his motivation went.

Damon and Graham? Two peas in a pod. Both great blokes and skilled but not naturally talented drivers.

Both had to lift a team after tragedy.

[jminsh]

Max Moseley's dad was head of the British Fascist party in the 1930's A bit like the FIA but easier to reason with !!LOL